RS Edition: Big Turbo/02A Progress Thread

[evolveVW]

Heres some pics of the hardware, I had them posted on the old site

http://uploader.ws/upload/200606/DSC02231_1.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200606/DSC02232_2.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200606/DSC02233_3.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200606/DSC02234_4.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200606/DSC02238_5.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200606/DSC02239_6.jpg


Project Details:

Install new turbo and 02A transmission with an LSD. Almost all of the turbo stuff is from Stu's old setup.

Heres a list of stuff so far

T3/T04E Dual BB A/R turbo
ATP manifold (was cracked but fixed now thanks to the man Brent)
3" Downpipe
Front mount intercooler, I dont remember the dimensions
PAssat 16v 02A
Peloquin LSD
75lb/hr injectors
Cable shifter and cables

Stuff Im going to need

38mm wastegate
Wideband O2 sensor
Muffler
Catalytic Converter
3" Straight and U Bend to make exhaust
6 puck Clutch and pressure plate
Rear 02A tranny mount bracket
02A starter
Powdercoat tranny case
Polish turbo
Chrome 5th gear cover
Paint or coat exhaust manifold
Possibly Clutch master and slave cylinders.. not sure if mine are still good
Inline fuel pump

Goal: 300-350 hp with a good tune, without really pushing the turbo too hard

[evolveVW]

Todays mission.. Mock up.

Installed the turbo and manifold, theres about an inch between the turbo and the firewall.

Test fit intercooler and piping. It looks like Ill be able to use 80% of Stus Mk4 piping, the only place it wasnt too close was from the IC outlet to the throttle body.

Moved the radiator back to fit the IC. There still isnt quite enough room, as the core is hanging up on the lower rad support. The outlet side of the IC needs to come down a bit too, to even it out and meet with the piping. The horn will have to be relocated as its right by the inlet. IC fitment is still tight at the top, with more room at the bottom of it. I think Im going to have to cut the center our of the lower rad support, weld in some channel or angle to drop the center of it down a bit. This should give me the needed clearance, and I need to take it out anyway to weld on extensions for the lower rad mounts. Its also the rattiest thing under the hood, so its getting painted.

There is no interference with the bumper whatsoever, which makes me happy

The downpipe should fit without issue.

Here are a few pics of todays progress.

http://uploader.ws/upload/200606/DSC02262.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200606/DSC02263.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200606/DSC02264.jpg

[Nuksucow]

Looks good man, you are really getting a move on. I can't wait to see this completed.

[evolveVW]

Unfortunately.. the turbo and manifold are only held on by a few nuts each right now. Once everything is set, its all coming back out for various detail work (polish etc etc)

[meatwad!!]

no coilpacks?

[boostin20v]

he is running SDS and using their coils.

[johnouellette]

he is running SDS and using their coils.


with all the coilpack failures 18T's get I'm surprised this isn't a more common mod. Even a bone stock daily driver could avoid breaking down wiith these.

[evolveVW]

with all the coilpack failures 18T's get I'm surprised this isn't a more common mod. Even a bone stock daily driver could avoid breaking down wiith these.

Unfortunately, every stock 1.8t would never pass inspection with this setup. SDS is a fully programmable engine management, which utilizes a GM style coil pack. No readiness, no OBD anything. My car is a 94 so its exempt from the readiness and emissions testing.

[evolveVW]

Cut the tabs off the IC to make it easier to fit, and finally test fit it tonight with the sectioned rad support. It was fitting ok, but still holding the radiator too far back. As I was attaching the piping, the IC fell down and rested on the rad support. The radiator was easy to move back towards the front of the car, piping fit, wasnt hitting the bumper (I bolted it back on to make sure), and should be easy to make tabs/supports to hold it in place.

The car is back on the ground, ready to move to its new home. I cant wait until its back on its ground for good...

[USOPHUNKE]

sweet...your making great progress.....

[evolveVW]

well, kind of. I have to take it all back out to paint the manifold, have the turbo polished, finish the radiator support, etc.

[useanimagination]

Almost ready for it's big move!

[USOPHUNKE]

you can stop by and grab the zip ties anytime for the axles...I should be around tonight

[evolveVW]

moved the car to Stus today.... looked soooo good sitting on the trailer. Big thanks to Stu for his time and vehicle. Got the car and my work benches all snug in the garage so I can finally tear down the 02A.

BTW... if any of you need to rent a trailer.....get it from Nations Rent, esp. Taft Rd if you need it for the weekend. I paid $73 for a tilt bed, flat bottom trailer for the entire weekend. It is much lighter than the Uhaul one too.

[VWTUNING]

congrats dude, now get that thing tore down! :cool:

[useanimagination]

Glad she's moved to her new home safe and sound.

[evolveVW]

safe and sound is pretty funny.. considering the rear chain came off before we got to 57 and the car rolled forward on the trailer and snapped the sectioned part of the rad support off (it was only tack welded anyway) Nothing big, just served to make me super paranoid. lol

[useanimagination]

ouch, i'm sure you were uber paranoid anyways.

[evolveVW]

well, yeah. When am I not?:p

[evolveVW]

5th gear cover is at the chromers..... 02A case is split and almost ready for powdercoating.


I need some help finding some good used parts in decent clean shape because going new is not cheap.

4cyl 02A starter looking to pay in the $50-60 range if possible
rear 02A tranny bracket
Mk3 VR or TDI clutch master cylinder
02A slave cylinder

TIA

[meatwad!!]

where are you getting your chrome done? ive been looking for a good place. let me know how it goes

[evolveVW]

Chrome is getting done through work... the tranny case is gutted and at the powder coater's. I need to order stuff... and see if I can polish the turbo myself.

If I really push it could be done for H20... I dont know if its going to happen.

[meatwad!!]

chrome through keystone? how much does that run? you can pm if youd like

[evolveVW]

Rob- depends on what you want chromed. Ill warn you it takes some time.


Now for the update: Tranny case will be done next week and I hope the 5th gear cover will be too. Im almost done drilling the rivets off the old diff to get the ring gear off. The cold side housing of the turbo has been removed and going to Brent2 shortly for cleanup. The front end is off the car, and the engine is ready to be removed so I can assemble it all outside of the car (much easier to get to the exhaust manifold and turbo, as well as mount the tranny without damaging the new coating.) Gotta drop the flywheel off at Fleetpride to get turned.

Tranny back and reassembled next weekend, as well as some other stuff..... I will be in good shape to have it done for H20.

[evolveVW]

Engine is out.
tranny is 90% assembled.
cruddy tranny mounts all cleaned up
oil and water lines are on the engine
Innovate XD-16 wideband, Tial 38mm gate, and the entire 3" Magnaflow exhaust ($200 for everything!) are here.
Turbo housing is cleaned up
6 puck, PP and flywheel are on.

Waiting for:
5th gear cover to come back from the chromer
1.5" J and wastegate flanges to mount WG and dump tube
BFI Delrin Stage 2 tranny mount
all of my turbo gaskets etc from 20Squared/ATP.
OE Bolts for slave, tranny mount rbackets etc from VW

I need to get batteries for my camera so I can take some in progress pics. Final push this weekend.... Im not planning on sleeping much.;)

[VWTUNING]

FYI - you're 5th gear is on our coffee table :)

[evolveVW]

Ill pick it up tonight on the way home. Big thanks to Matt for the help.

[FusLit]

Vinnie, Did you do full derilin all around, or just the tranny mount?

I have the full bfi front & back stage 4 kit, when I thought I may have to replace the turn2 poly mounts I have. it looks and feels hard as hell man. I've got the turn 2 poly kit upper and lower front and back and solid g60 tranny mount in and it shakes a bit. From what I've read the Vr6 is smoother balanced (6 vrs 4 cylinders) Have you foam taped everything? People that did stage 4 turn2 mounts w/4 cylinders were complaining of the vibration I can only imagine what full Derlin will be like.

If you're going stage 5 solid derlin, are you prepared to have your fillings shooken out? *grin*

-Todd

[evolveVW]

Its only a Stage 2, I have hockey pucks for the other mounts :)

[evolveVW]

Well after busting my ass for a few weeks and scurrying around getting parts... it seems the car wins this battle for now. There just isnt enough time ( I have to work 14 hours or so tomorrow) and I wouldnt even be able to drive it until Wednesday night if it was done. Oh well.. Show and Go or no shows this year for it.

Heres where I am at.

Engine and tranny are in the car.
Downpipe was shortened lengthwise and extended by an inch and a half heightwise.
Exhaust is 80% done
Clutch master cylinder is installed.
Wastegate placement has been figured out, pipe is cut.

WHat has gone wrong and or stuff I am waiting for..
Delrin engine mount stripped out. Spent waay too much time trying to make it work.
I had to take the cable and shifter back out of the car. The eye on the gear selector cable was missing the insert to bolt it to the shift tower. I tried to fabricate something and ruined it. The insert used to be a separate part number, now its part of the cable. You do not want to know how much the cable is....

The engine and tranny fought going back in. We took the engine in and out 3 times...

Whats left...
Get new tranny mount
Get oil for engine and tranny
Finish exhaust and wastegate
Install intercooler and piping and make brackets to hold it in place....
Install wideband...

So close... but she's always been one to not make things easy...

[B4passatglx]

I know how these things can get when deadlines come. I had the same problem with my Passat. It still sits as summer passed it by. But thankfully things are getting done the right way.

If you still want to shoot for your deadline I'd definatly be willing to help you out and pull a few late nighters, to see if that may help you meet your deadline.

[evolveVW]

I appreciate it, but driving an untested car 400 miles just isnt worth it. I think SHow and Go is doable to have everthing tested and the car done..

[FusLit]

Stage2? hahaha, I think you should bring a bag of ice around with you and you'll be able to make mixed drinks for people Shaken, not stirrrred ;)

Man while it sucks you missed the deadline, like I was telling you @ J. Angels, I think it will be better to not rush, focus on getting it together right (I know it sucks to wait to drive it though) :(

Anyway, if you need any tools, let me know, If I have it you're welcome to borrow it... although I just loaned out a few to a friend so it's gonna all depend on what you need...

-Todd

[RichB]

I know it has been a long busy summer for you Vin... It'll be done when its done though... Like Todd said, don't rush it just to make a show.

[evolveVW]

Figures.. the chrome showed up today. At least that means I can return the other one.

[MerryBerry]

That sucks Vin, but at least you'll be seeing 50+ mpg for such a long trip ;)

[boostin20v]

If you dont like the purple on the turbo I found this http://www.turboneticsinc.com/pa_backplates.htm

[evolveVW]

well, all I got done tonight was these lousy update pics. I had some of the lower piping and intercooler but they didnt copy over for some reason

http://uploader.ws/upload/200701/DSC02259.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200701/DSC02260.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200701/DSC02261.jpg


Whats left? Final fitment and bracket fab for the radiator, intercooler, and pipes. Wire in the Innovative XD-16 wideband and low impedance injector driver. Finish hooking up wiring and some coolant hoses. Now all I need is a lil motivation. Oh, if you had noticed that there doesnt look to be too much clearance on the turbo side.... there is hardly any at all. :wink:

[meatwad!!]

YESS PROGRESSS!!!! just finish it. Gah.

[B4passatglx]

looks great!! I want to hear this thing.

Where did you get your intercooler plumbing welded, do it yourself? It looks really clean and I want to get rid of most of my couplers and have a clean look too.

What engine managment are you running?

love the pics

[VWTUNING]

dope dude :)

[BUNNYLOVE]

Awesome, looks like you on the home stretch.

[USOPHUNKE]

wow is really looking good... nice job mon..

[evolveVW]

looks great!! I want to hear this thing.

Where did you get your intercooler plumbing welded, do it yourself? It looks really clean and I want to get rid of most of my couplers and have a clean look too.

What engine managment are you running?

love the pics


The intercooler piping was done by the shop that made installed it in Stu's Mk4, although I did have to section and reweld the loop around to the intercooler on the drivers side.. time to find out how good my welding is.

The standalone system is SDS EM-4F.

Thanks guys. I'm trying to get back in the swing of things. Ironically these are the first pics Ive taken since before I moved I really wanted to take step by step pics but forgot :wink:

[meatwad!!]

did i spark some motivation in you?!?
if you want any help. give me a call 481 1753. help me help you

[evolveVW]

almost there guys... barring any issues, it looks like the weather might not let me tune at all before Show N Go... in which case the car will stay home :frown: Oh well, I am not going to ruin it just to make a show.

[lotar_6]

Congrats, Vinnie! (well, almost) You must have been turning wrenches like a mad man recently! Got any recent pics?

[FusLit]

Sweet man!!! Can't wait to hear it back up and running :-)

looks good for sure

-Todd

[boostin20v]

SPY PICTS!!!

http://monty.syr.edu/vw/cool/fastdubs/IMG_1373.JPG
http://monty.syr.edu/vw/cool/fastdubs/IMG_1374.JPG
http://monty.syr.edu/vw/cool/fastdubs/IMG_1375.JPG
http://monty.syr.edu/vw/cool/fastdubs/IMG_1376.JPG
http://monty.syr.edu/vw/cool/fastdubs/IMG_1377.JPG
http://monty.syr.edu/vw/cool/fastdubs/IMG_1378.JPG
http://monty.syr.edu/vw/cool/fastdubs/IMG_1379.JPG
http://monty.syr.edu/vw/cool/fastdubs/IMG_1380.JPG

[RichB]

Looking real good Vin! Its going to be awesome!

[VWTUNING]

dope! was the intercooler piping 100% plug and play? or did you have to customize it?

[lotar_6]

SPY PICTS!!!

http://monty.syr.edu/vw/cool/fastdubs/IMG_1376.JPG


Cool!! A couple more jack stands and you should be good to go, Vin!! :laugh:

Look'n good, man!!

[evolveVW]

dope! was the intercooler piping 100% plug and play? or did you have to customize it?

If you look at the driver's side lower pipe, you can see where I shortened it and welded it back together, otherwise the pipes are untouched.

Kyle- Two of those I just havent moved yet, they were holding the front crossmember and intercooler while I have the lower rad support out.

[evolveVW]

I had hoped to start it this weekend, and just like always the car is on its own schedule. I have fuel pump wiring issues, too much current, not enough cable to push it through. I ordered a Painless 40 amp Relay Kit and am just going to wire the pumps by themselves. Otherwise, I dont have much else to do until then.

[evolveVW]

well, I was kind of just screwing around tonight with te fuel pump when I decided to turn the car over.... I turn the key... turn turn turn... and it catches for a few second. At this point, totally surprised, I actually turned the one fuel pump I have wired on, and turned it over again.. SUre enough it fired... and idled! I played with the fuel a little and got it to idle better. What a surprise.. so far no leaks but I have some air pockets in my cooling system to get rid of. Also this : http://www.fastdubs.org/forums/showthread.php?p=56546#post56546

It would appear at worst case the tranny has to come back out.. Best case is the shift box and shift tower are not adjusted properly...

[lotar_6]

Congrats, Vinnie!!

What's up w/ the shifter? When I put mine back together, the only adjustments I had to do was the side-to-side adjustment at the tranny. I hope your issue is as easy as this!

[evolveVW]

It turns out I had put the lower shift fork in the wrong place.... bummer was I had to take the tranny out and disassemble it to fix it. It took Stu and I two hours to physically get it out, and about 30 seconds to put it in :laugh: I reassembled most of everything else today, but ran into a snag when the hard line cross threaded into the slave cylinder. So I hard to replace one or the other, or both... nothing like a halt to progress :frown:

[Shiftn4Dubs]

Good news!!! Glad you got it figured out!!!! FYI, you posted this in the wrong thread:smile: Oops didnt realize Lotar asked about the shifter prob.. Sorry.

[lotar_6]

lucky that's an easy fix! I'm glad it went in easy! Mine did the same thing. stoopid trannies! :mad:

If you need a 02A hydraulic slave, I have one sitting on my workbench I don't need. It's practically brand new! I was gonna save it for when mine fails, but I replace that about 20k or less ago, so I'm sure it'll be around for a while. LMK if you need it.

[evolveVW]

I might just take that off your hands Kyle. I am hoping the slave is cross threaded and not the hard line... its not as messy to replace :wink:

[lotar_6]

I've replaced my driver's side brake hardline b4, and it's not as bad as you think... it is messy though! Gotta catch that ish quick!!

LMK

[VWTUNING]

Glad to hear shes coming along vin :)

[evolveVW]

it turns out the threads on the slave are definitely shot. I took it out today so its all ready for reassembly.:wink:

[FusLit]

Glad it was the lesser of two evils!

how soon will it be on the road, what's the running list of things needed to be taken care of?

-Todd

[evolveVW]

Big thanks to Kyle for the slave cylinder, everything is pretty much back together.
I have to finish up the FP relay wiring and a bunch of little things Friday night... almost there!

I need some spark plug advice.. it has NGK PFR6Q.. 1.8t stock plugs. They hAve been good to me.. I would have fouled out 3-4 sets of normal plugs to this one. It seems these are a little on the cold side and should be decent until I run higher boost. Thoughts?

[boostin20v]

NGK BKR7E @ .026-.028" gap

[evolveVW]

Its all back together, it runs, and no leaks so far. However I have two issues that are keeping me from getting it on the ground and driving it.

1. Tranny in "neutral." When the car is idling the wheels spin when you let the clutch out. Give it some throttle, and they go faster. I put it in 1st gear and it stalled (up on jackstands.) Pete had mentioned his VR did something similar so I am wondering if this is common on o2A's

2. Electrical draw. I think I have this figured out but I would like some other opinions. Voltage when the car was running was at 10.2v, pretty low considering it normally is in the high 13v to 14.1v. The battery registered 10.75v after I had run the car and started it a few times. The only new additions were the wideband and 2nd fuel pump that has its own relay set up. I disconnected the negative cable and the battery registered 11.3v. I put it on 10a charge, it read 12.4volts, 2a 12.0v. My belief is the battery is dead.

Other possibilties:
Alternator output low.
Too much draw on the system
Any ideas?

[B4passatglx]

How are all your grounds and stuff? Not sure if this would cause excessive electrical draw, but At least on my VR6, I was charging at 11v and I cleaned all my grounds and connections to the starter and alternator and now I am charging at 14v. Does your alternator have a seperate voltage regulator on its housing, or one built in?

Is there anything drawing current when the car is shut off?

[Shiftn4Dubs]

The rotation is transfered thru the gear train by the adhesive quality of the oil in the trans. Completely normal, nothing to worry about. Found this about the wheels spinning. Is it both wheels, or one, if its one when running in neutral, stop it with your hand and the other wheel will start spinning.

As far as the stalling, Are your Motor Mounts in good shape and at the right hieght? and why did you add a 2nd fuel pump? Is it set up right?

Also how high is the car jacked up? is it jacked up level or is it just jacked up in the front? Maybe that is why it is stalling.

My belief is the battery is dead.
If the battery was dead it wouldnt start at all, I would check the new setup you added, and maybe you need a bigger battery, put the battery in a different car and see if it happens in another car, that way you will know for sure if its the battery.

[Shiftn4Dubs]

Also how high is the car jacked up? is it jacked up level or is it just jacked up in the front? Maybe that is why it is stalling


I would lower it down and test it in 1st gear, just to see if it stalls, not saying drive it.... if it doesnt stall, then you can go from there.

[evolveVW]

Grounds are clean. I am thinking I may have forgotten which wire was which when I reconnected the wiring to the alternator plug. Ill know for sure when I look at it again.

The second pump is to provide proper flow at higher boost. One motor mount is new, the other two have 5k on them. The car is level and both wheels spin, too fast to be stopped by hand without injury. I am not putting the car back down until I know everything is set with the engine. So I won't know for sure if this is an issue until I do take it off the stands.

[meatwad!!]

throttle cable too tight?


ill be looking at that exhaust today I WILL get back to you today.

[BUNNYLOVE]

Try putting it in first and starting with no clutch. And then in 1st with the clutch pressed.

My truck did this when I first put it together, it was a clutch hydro issue.

[meatwad!!]

the exhaust on my jetta is in pretty good shape, dual DP. but im not sure what im doing with the car yet..

[evolveVW]

After some more tests and comparisons to the Mk4, the system does not seem to be charging at all. I have one more simple thing to check before I take the alternator out to get it tested. I would find it hard to believe that an alternator with 15k on it is bad. Ryan- I will have to try that.

[Shiftn4Dubs]

Is it possible that the new added setup relay for the 2nd fuel pump is drawing to much from the battery? Disconnect the Radio and lights and try it again before ripping the alt. out, maybe that is why it wont keep the charge on the Battery?

I mention these cause the radio is a constant draw, and if you have RDL that also is a constant draw.

[evolveVW]

Radio and lights are not even connected. Voltage is the same at the relay as the battery. I highly doubt that if the alternator was charging the system it would be showing 11v or less while the car is running.

[VWTUNING]

is the blue wire hooked up to the alternator?

how about testing the alternator with the battery disconected from it? should tell ya if its the alt or the battery

[BUNNYLOVE]

Is your alt. light on? Or is it not working? The alt. current goes to the positive post so you should still see 13-14v even if the battery is sucking.

Don't the newer alternators all self exite? The one on my truck does, I don't have the blue wire even hooked up. It doesn't kick in until like 2500rpms or something like that. Maybe try blipping the throttle and see if the voltage jumps.

[evolveVW]

The blue wire is connected, I just have to make sure the connector under the battery is plugged in. I tried giving it some throttle last night and it made no difference. It should read 13v- 14v at idle. It did last time it was running, and the TDI does too. This stupid stuff just keeps surfacing:mad: Oh well thats how it is .

[Shiftn4Dubs]

Read Here from the Vortex seems to be the same issue you are having (http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2342716&postid=25700050) with your battery.

one suggestion from the thread is pull your radio fuse and test again.

[evolveVW]

Like I said before, the radio is not connected and the deck does not have an internal amplifier.

I forgot to mention that the low amp light is not connected. The battery took a charge from an external charger, it read 14.2v when it was hooked up. 12.3 or so just after it was disconected from the charger.

[BUNNYLOVE]

Without the alt. light functional the blue wire does not do anything. They are directly tied together. Your TDI has a working light and an exite wire so it works at idle at startup. The alt will charge fine without the excite wire functioning (mine does anyways) but you have to rev it in order for the voltage regulator to turn on, after that it charges at idle.

I would either rev it higher and see if it kicks on, jump the blue wire to power and see if that works, or start checking your voltage reg.

[evolveVW]

Ryan- that makes sense. The Mk3 uses one wire for both and the Mk4 alt uses two, one to the cluster, one to the ECU.

I will try this when I get home. Thanks guys.

[evolveVW]

Mr. M3 MCShane for the win! I revved it past 2500 and it was like Nine Mile 1 coming online! Just goes to show you learn something new about these stupid cars every day. I just have to attend to some minor leaks and wiring placement and I can put the car back on the ground.

[Shiftn4Dubs]

Hahahahahaha That is what my GTI does!!! I thought that was normal in VW's. Glad you got it figured out! :smile: So is that normal behvior or does my GTI have a problem also? You really can see the change at night with the lights on, and see the how bright they get after you rev past 2500.

[evolveVW]

Just when I thought I was done....... :mad:

I was going to drop the car down off the stands tonight and finish assembling it, but I decided to get under it one last time to look at the downpipe to turbo etc because it has been blowing out lack water..I find one of the turbo to downpipe bolts loose and tighten it.....and the stud snaps.... doh!

Its not in a very accessible place so at the very least the downpipe, exhaust, and wastegate/piping all habe to come out so I can attempt to drill and easy out the stud. Needless to say I am very frustrated.....

[Shiftn4Dubs]

Dude that sucks! I feel for yeah, I had the same happen to me when I had a big ole 440 and put headers on it, the last one snapped, I said screw it and left it missing one stud, didnt even have a leak there either.

[evolveVW]

Unfortunately.... this one is leaking. If it didnt I wouldnt care.

[RichB]

Bummer Vinny.... Keep at it, you'll get it done!

[evolveVW]

so I snapped the bolt extractor off last night.. was pretty darn pissed but decided to try drilling it out again, except this time it is going much slower... I am pretty much ready to say F it for now and just put it back together.... :mad:

[FusLit]

that sucks man :-/

Perhaps you can get in there a little easier with a right angle drill?

-Todd

[evolveVW]

I am using a right angle drill. I have used new drill bits, old ones, and still no difference. The only good thing is this stud is the one on a 5 bolt flange that is at the bottom, so its primary function is sealing the internal wastegate port. The other 4 bolts should mostly take care of the main outlet if I decide to put it back together

[FusLit]

Ah, sorry didn't realize you already had one. Well, at least it's not one of the other bolts :)

hmm, is there enough of the stud there to weld to? (can you even get to it w/a welder)

sounds like you have already tried all that I would...

Personally, if it won't affect structural integrity I would be inclined to leave it for now.
Of course that all depends on how much of a pain in the @$$ it would be to pull it? (in terms of time I guess)

(just thinking out loud here) I say get it together, put it on the ground, is it possible that you may have to pull things anyway depending on how the tuning goes?

-Todd

[evolveVW]

I wish there was some sticking out to weld to. Its not structural at all, merely one of the points where the downpipe bolts to the turbo. The worst thing it would cause if I leave it is an exhaust leak.

And I hope I dont have to remove everything during and after tuning..... unless I break something :wink:

[evolveVW]

I said the hell with it and put it all back together. However where the turbo meets the downpipe it still leaks inthesame places it did before. I am thinking that oneor both surfaces are not perfectly flat, andthe only cure without machining is a gasket. I have never seen one, but does anyone know where I can get a 5 bolt turbo to downpipe gasket?

[WickedWabbit]

I have never seen one, but does anyone know where I can get a 5 bolt turbo to downpipe gasket?
__________________


Gasket Maker. they make this stuff for just this reason. any auto parts store should have it.

[USOPHUNKE]

I said the hell with it and put it all back together. However where the turbo meets the downpipe it still leaks inthesame places it did before. I am thinking that oneor both surfaces are not perfectly flat, andthe only cure without machining is a gasket. I have never seen one, but does anyone know where I can get a 5 bolt turbo to downpipe gasket?

I have the gasket at my house free... :wink:

[evolveVW]

The gasket made enough of a difference for me to put the car on the ground... thanks Brent! Now that possible nagging tranny problem I was worried about... the one related to the wheels spinning in neutral... has reared its ugly head. When its in neutral, it moves like its in first, when its in first, its like its in third... shifter alignment? Ryan McShane- you mentioned a clutch hydro issue? what did that entail? Clutch engagement seems decent though.

[VWTUNING]

Are you putting it in neutral at the tranny or from in the car? if its in the car then I would say its likely allignment, try from in the engine bay. you can look at mine tomorrow if you want to compare

[USOPHUNKE]

your welcome....

did you bleed the clutch out and get all the air out.....

I would say it sounds like allignment too. mine is sure to have the same issues... so fig it out then you can help me

[BUNNYLOVE]

If the engagement is OK and you can shift its probably not a clutch hydro issue. I would put it on the ground and see what it does.

[evolveVW]

Pete and Ryan- The car is officially on the ground... :wink: what I said before .. I meant it was actually moving in neutral like it was in first etc. I have been engaging it from in the car, did not try from the tranny.

[evolveVW]

more info.... still the same problem. I disco'd the cables from the gear selector and it still did the same thing. I put the tranny in the 1st gear position by hand at the selector and it still did the same thing. Reverse does not engage. It feels like it is trying to engage something, but will stall. Can shift the tranny into gear by hand at the selector. I started to think that maybe i put it back together with the gear changer on the gear stack in the wrong place. I took the gear selector out and everything "seems" to be in the right place. Please help, I want this thing done and the thought of removing the tranny again makes me shudder:mad:

[evolveVW]

big thanks to Ryan McShane for suggesting to roll the car.. it popped into neutral and now is all right in the world... I tore up and down the street a couple times.. definitely needs to be tuned but still great... still have a leak at the down pipe but its not too bad

[lotar_6]

WHEH!!! I'm glad to hear that's all it was!! I've had a similar issue on my first FZR a looooooonnnnggg time ago, but nowhere near as bad as you just had. You are on your way! :cool:

[BUNNYLOVE]

Great to hear!

[USOPHUNKE]

awsome!!!!!!! yeay!!!!

[meatwad!!]

yay!!!!!

[FusLit]

WOOHOO!!! Congrats man, glad it was something fairly simple (i.e. no rip tranny out for 3rd time the charm)

:smile:

-Todd

[Master_Shake]

kick ass!

[useanimagination]

I hope to see this thing when I come home out of the garage!

[evolveVW]

I had it out yesterday and am going over shortly to go do some more tuning.

Update- Running about 5-7psi, trying to get a smooth map. Right now its really rich just off idle, then lean for a split second, then running 9 -10 AFR all the way up through. Thats a little rich, so I need to tone it back a bit. Fans finally started working, and just keeping an eye on a few key areas for heat damage.

[evolveVW]

well, for those that have been following this and havent seen the car, here are a few pics

http://uploader.ws/upload/200707/03_2.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200707/04_3.jpg
http://uploader.ws/upload/200707/05_4.jpg


Survived 200 miles round trip to the track and 28 passes down the 1320. Probably the best way to tune it without a dyno. Started at 7 psi, ran 16.3 at 91mph, best run was at 10psi, 14.08 at 105.95mph. If I could launch it correctly, would have been an easy 13. Still a bunch of little things to attend to, but am very happy to be back behind the wheel again.

[evolveVW]

I think I have the blue smoke screen solved. The oil restricter was either too big or had worn itself too big. ATP lists the oil restricter opening at .065", mine measured .12"- double the "correct" size. If someone does not have one locally, Ill order one.

[FROZEN337]

Oh dear god :eek: I want a BT too :frown: I love the 4dr golf w/NASTY power!

[boostin20v]

If you're making a ATP order let me know and I may piggy back for savings on shipping.

[meatwad!!]

slow :rolleyes:

[evolveVW]

little update- fans went on drag day, installed another fan and nothing. Tested directly to the battery and the fans work. Turns out the ground for the fan no longer is grounded. I am going to run a new ground for now instead of ripping the harness apart.

I thought I had a pretty bad oil leak. Turns out it was all the oily soot exhaust condensation. It was all over the oil pan, k frame etc. Most of it was confined to the area around the dump tube, and it all just wiped right off. Hopefully this will go away with the new restrictor and better tuning.

So far- 320 miles and 28 passes. Hopefully thats a good enough test for the ride to Waterfest.

[evolveVW]

little update- I have about 1k miles on the setup now, which I am extremely happy with. However I have two nagging problems..

1. Off-on throttle richness. Be it cruising and letting off and getting back on, or going from a dead stop, or between shifts at part throttle, it goes extremely rich (in the 9:1 AFR range) for a second then goes away. I have tried dialing back fuel in vacuum but it doesnt help. Is it because of my monster injectors? Any ideas to lean it up a bit?

2. Oil in the IC pipes, exhaust condensation etc. I know some is normal, but I am thinking now that my PCV system is setup improperly. (STu and I have talked at length about this and he may be right...) Right now it just runs from the port on the valve cover to the catch can, with an OEM plug in the port on top of the oil filter housing. Apparently this is the wrong way, any other confirmation?

The smoke is not as bad, seems to go away after driving for a bit. The above may contribute to it as well.

[lite1979]

Is the oil in the intercooler piping on the turbo side or the intake side? I'm a little worried about the oil in the turbo being an issue here. Is the drain line for the turbo above the oil line in the pan? Are you venting the PCV to atmosphere?

[evolveVW]

I'm picking up some BKR7Es tonight, hooking up the second fuel pump, and turning the boost up to 15psi. Im hoping I can run that pretty reliably and be at the power level I am shooting for. I'm thinking about running on pump for a pull or two this weekend, then running a pull on race gas to see how much power I can make. I don't want to stress the stock bottom end too much, so I need to keep EGTs and detonation in check.

That oil leak I mentioned before seems to be exhaust condensation mixed with oil/fuel. The dump pipe blows it all over hehe. The smoke has subsided a lot, it usually will only do it when its cold instead of all the time. Looks like the new oil restrictor is helping a ton... Thanks to Mr. McShane for the suggestion. :smile:

[evolveVW]

well, haven't updated in a while. finally worked on it for a while last night, and got the turbo out without taking the engine out. I guess the studs not staying in the manifold is actually a good thing in this case, otherwise the motor would have had to come out!

Otherwise, there is a bunch of stuff here and on order... my interior and stereo need to go!

[evolveVW]

Back from the dead...... My freshly rebuilt turbo is on its way back from CA, so after finals this weekend its go time to finish things up for this year... such as

Install 11" front brakes
Finish removing stereo
Order two tires and pick up my new wheels
Install speed sensor (Ill finally have a working speedo for the first time since 2002!)
Oil change
Minor aesthetic work in the engine bay

There is a few other things but I don't remember them right now. I'm just going to be happy the smoke screen will be absent!

[gl2slow]

Order two tires and pick up my new wheels

is this tru?

[evolveVW]

maybe.. and don't dare ask the other question ,because no they are not for sale!!! :laugh:

[Master_Shake]

omg give me RS's!

[gl2slow]

hahaha no i dont want them im waiting on my set now. i just didnt think i would see the day. like your car with out the RS's is like hot wings that are not hot.
but still cant waite im sure its something good.

[evolveVW]

Ive been running them since 2001, so now that everyone and their Mk5 driving brother has them in sizes that were never intended for that wheel, I'm giving mine a rest for a while.

[Master_Shake]

Bwhaha!

[evolveVW]

you shut up! You are probably going to get some RS's just to irritate me!!!

[Master_Shake]

me no. well if i do it won't be to iriate you, that'd just be a perk of having them. haha

[evolveVW]

Well, things never go as planned with this car. I received my freshly rebuilt turbo (looks like new) and started to install it Friday night. I am having a huge amount of trouble attaching the water lines, and while doing so discovered a hole in the manifold right where it meets the flange on the top side. I can stick a tiny allen key into it and it goes all the way through. Wonderful. If I can't patch this while its on the car, the motor absolutely has to come out to get that stupid ATP manifold off. Any patch suggestions? JB Weld isn't meant to work at high temps, unless some of you have used it with some success.

[RichB]

Well, things never go as planned with this car. I received my freshly rebuilt turbo (looks like new) and started to install it Friday night. I am having a huge amount of trouble attaching the water lines, and while doing so discovered a hole in the manifold right where it meets the flange on the top side. I can stick a tiny allen key into it and it goes all the way through. Wonderful. If I can't patch this while its on the car, the motor absolutely has to come out to get that stupid ATP manifold off. Any patch suggestions? JB Weld isn't meant to work at high temps, unless some of you have used it with some success.

Bummer Vin... hope you find a solution to fix that hole. Was looking forward to seeing the car on the road soon.

[FusLit]

What a bummer. Maybe you could drill and tap the hole and put a plug (bolt) in? Nothing easy comes to mind as that could leave metal shavings.

-Todd

[evolveVW]

Todd- It would definitely cause interference putting a plug in it, plus its in a bad spot. I would use JB even if it held up for a little bit and i had to keep redoing it.

[VWTUNING]

damn that sucks man :(

[meatwad!!]

uhhhh...


i have some metal paste stuff. i have no idea if it will work but ill check the temp on it. its for fixings cracks in blocks and stuff

[evolveVW]

yeah let me know.. thanks.

[FusLit]

Gotcha, I was in autozone today and they had something which is made for muffler repair (I would imagine similar to jb-weld.) I think the biggest issue you will have is how it'll handle the boost side of things.

Give it a shot, the worst it'll do is not work right?

-Todd

[BUNNYLOVE]

The problem is there is quite a bit of pressure in the manifold and lots of heat too. I don't think anything you can put on is gonna hold.

[MIdub]

cant you just weld the hole closed? since its cast just heat it up with a torch till its hot then weld it closed....

[B4passatglx]

Damn that sucks man,

Strange thing is I am also having troubles with my turbo manifold, Mine aren't as big as this, but I need to re-tap the holes for the studs.

Good luck!

[evolveVW]

cant you just weld the hole closed? since its cast just heat it up with a torch till its hot then weld it closed....

Unfortunately we found out last year, through quite a few trial and errors, that it is not that easy.

[MIdub]

prob gonna have to take it off and take it to someplace that welds then.... needs to be welded with a high nickel content welding rod/wire.... cast is harder to weld but can be done....

[evolveVW]

prob gonna have to take it off and take it to someplace that welds then.... needs to be welded with a high nickel content welding rod/wire.... cast is harder to weld but can be done....


I had it done to the same manifold to repair a crack, it was cold tanked quite a few times before the weld held. This manifold is junk. The search begins for an early PagParts (clone of the ATP but without the cracking and mounting issues) or have one made to the same measurements as the ATP so I don't have to redo everything

[USOPHUNKE]

yeah I am surprised it held that long... was it one of our welds that went bad vin?

the manifold was way overheated and has lost alot of its properties. the material was welded and then brazed over... we didnt originally think it would last the year....

[iceVee]

Sounds like these manifolds have problems with porosity or heat stress cracking or both?

You can make a weld hold up well on cast iron. It's much easier if it's high-quality nodular iron, but plain old cast can be repaired too.

The trick is to preheat the manifold, weld it, and then wrap it or put it in an oven to cool very slowly. High nickel rod works for stick welding because the nickel is ductile and will give when the cast iron cools, and not crack.

The other way to do it is with an oxy-acetylene torch set-up from a company called Eutectics. They make a custom torch with a fitting for attaching a plastic bottle of metal particles so the metal comes out in the flame and sprays onto the area you're welding. We used to use this to repair expensive cast iron glass molds when I worked for Steuben Glass. Tricky to get right, but when you do it's every bit as good as the original casting. You can get various different powder formulas for different cast irons.

The preheating and controlled cooling is really important, as is prepping it properly with a die grinder. You have to make sure all cracks are ground out, or it will crack again pretty much immediately.

Of course, it might be easier just to find another manifold...

[evolveVW]

yeah I am surprised it held that long... was it one of our welds that went bad vin?

the manifold was way overheated and has lost alot of its properties. the material was welded and then brazed over... we didnt originally think it would last the year....

As far as I can tell your weld has held up fine. This is on the top side of the manifold.

[evolveVW]

Just found this.... for 16.50 its worth a shot!

POR15 Fire Seal 2000 (http://www.por15.com/prodinfo.asp?number=FS2&dept=10)

[MIdub]

hey vin.. i just found this stuff i have its from permatex.... filler/bonder hi-temp metal repair compound made for manifolds/headers!! says gets stronger with heat up to 2000 deg. should have it at any of the auto places for like $5-10
http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/specialized_maintenance_repair/exhaust_system_maintenance_repair/Permatex_Hi-Temp_Metal_Repair_Compound.htm

[evolveVW]

I'll have to check it out, thanks!

[evolveVW]

Got a few things done: Installed 11" Front brakes, removed almost all of the rest of the stereo stuff, and attempted to have the tires mounted on my new wheels....which resulted in one of them having to be repainted. :mad: Probably going to have Cantech mount them now, my tolerance for tire places has run out.

I also have to remove the turbo again to prep the manifold hole for repair... ugh.

[Master_Shake]

Can't wait man.

[lotar_6]

frigg'n tire places have no respect! keep on work'n vin!!

[evolveVW]

I took it all back apart last week to prep that hole and fill it, only to find that it does not go all the way through the casting. It is right above the stud hole. So I cleaned it and put the filler on anyway, and put it all back together.....

Well, as usual with this car, it wants to fight me. It is leaking oil from the oil drain. I tightened fitting and the flange bolts and it still did it.... weird since all of the flat surfaces on the turbo were decked when it was redone, maybe my return flange is out of whack.... ugh. Also the second fuel pump is not turning on, so I have to track that down too.

[evolveVW]

Update- I put a new flange in and the leak has slowed a bunch, I think I have that figured out just have to get to it again.

However, I have another issue that has arisen again. I fired the car up today to watch the leak.. and after it run for a bit, it starts smoking like it did before the turbo rebuild. This is the first time it has done this since reassembly (started and ran 4 times before this with no smoke) and when I revved it smoke instantly filled the garage...... so I am right back to square one. Any suggestions???

[BUNNYLOVE]

That blows! What do you have for a crank case vent? Also, what about your drain line? Anychances its kinked or has something stuck in it? Sometimes the braided stainless can look fine but the rubber inside is messed up.

[evolveVW]

Crank case vent tees into the valve cover vent, which goes to a catch can. I ran it capped off for a long time and never had this problem. I changed it when I put the bigger turbo on.

Oil drain line... I don't think so but it is probably worth a look. There is never any oil in it that I can see when I take it off the turbo...

[VWTUNING]

damn that sucks vinny :(

[evolveVW]

After doing a bunch of reading in the 1.8t forum.... my question is, could it be caused by lack of any PCV valve whatsoever? All of the other issues- bad turbo (mine is newly rebuilt and hasn't seen boost yet,) bad rings (possible but unlikely at 15k miles), head gasket etc all seem unlikely.

[BUNNYLOVE]

As long as it has a open vent to your catch can it should be ok. You don't need an actual pcv valve.
If you take off your oil cap while its running do you get any smoke or excess pressure? Usually burnt rings will cause bad blow by and other issues. Plus if you pull your plugs they would look nasty if you were burning oil pre turbo.

Also does it run smoke free for a few minutes while cold and then start smoking as it warms up?

[evolveVW]

That's exactly what it did. It was fine for a few minutes then started smoking. Plugs always looked fine even when it was really bad last year. Ill have to check the oil cap thing.

[BUNNYLOVE]

Usually when it does that its turbo related. The turbine gets hot and starts burning the oil that leaked. Any chance its left over oil in your DP and exhaust?

I would call your rebuilder and let em know whats going on. Maybe they can offer some suggestions. You might just need to drive it a bit. I've had a couple turbo that smoked until I drove them a bit.

[evolveVW]

That's what I have been thinking, fix the leak and beat on it a bit and see what happens.

[evolveVW]

here is what I found tonight:

No liquid of any sort in the catch can.

Oil drain line clear as a bell

Spark plugs look fine

Hopefully the smoke will take care of itself...


The oil leak is oil blowing right past the drain gasket. Took it out, clean every thing up and put it back in. Won't know until tomorrow if it leaks or not.

[MIdub]

just a long shot but do you have a restrictor on the oil inlet line going to the turbo? Manybe its getting too much oil pressure making it leak then starts burning the oil when it gets hot?

[evolveVW]

yes, I went to an even smaller restrictor than the one on it for that reason.

[evolveVW]

I used some super high temp (700 deg) copper RTV... and so far it is holding! I'll have to keep an eye on it once I start driving it.

As for the smoke.. there must be a ton of residual left in the system. Black oil and fuel water is seeping out of the cold side, out of some of the welds, and between the manifold and turbo. I hope it burns off.... SMoke was slightly better as the car warmed up when I was testing the sealant...but still waaay too much.

[Master_Shake]

i wanna see this car out.

[evolveVW]

Talk about long over due.... finally did the leak down test tonight with the help of Mr McShane- every indication points to a good bottom end! Numbers look good, no leaks at all were heard on either side of the motor or between the cylinders. Plugs look great, car runs great. Next is taking the turbo off and looping the water and oil lines and seeing if it smokes without the turbo. So for now... I need to find a back up turbo!

[lotar_6]

this is great news! kinda makes you wish you did it sooner, huh?

[FusLit]

sweet! Great news that the bottom end should be good Vin! <newb question> since I know very little about turbo's, if you loop the water/oil lines to the turbo, don't you increase the probability that it will hose the bearings?</newb question>

What type of turbo are you looking for a test turbo?

-T

[evolveVW]

Todd- Im talking about looping the lines with no turbo installed at all.

Kyle- No doubt. I'm looking for a T3 flanged turbo, 5 bolt exhaust outlet. Physically, the exhaust and compressor housings need to be set up the same as mine... its mounted in reverse with the cold air inlet facing the passenger side, with just a straight tube for the compressor outlet.

[evolveVW]

Took the turbo off and ran it.. still smoked pretty badly. It was cool to have it run open header and shoot flames out like a top fuel drag car!

So, most likely the turbo isnt the issue, and the bottom end isnt an issue. Current consensus is possible leakage at the valve guides or stem seals. Ugh. I just hate to dive in without knowing for sure. here are my options if I go this route:

Do the guides and stem seals on my current head.. about $100 in parts

Buy Jay's AEB head and rebuild it. It needs valves etc etc. All the valves alone are $500.

There's a freshly rebuilt 3 angle valve grind AEB head in Chicago for 700 shipped.

Even the two master techs at work are a bit stumped. They thought it was weird to have that much smoke and not have found the issue yet.

[meatwad!!]

pull the head before you assume its the head.


imo ,the AEB head swap is not worth in unless you build it and run cams to the tune of like 2k....

better off with a short runner..

[evolveVW]

I found this... like Rob said, I'll have to pull the head..

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2514201

[allstarrme]

maybe run some seafoam through it see if the oil in there clears up, or gets worse. that link on vortex is what i was saying through.

Heres supertech valves for $335 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Supertech-Valves-VW-Audi-1-8T-AEB-5v-STD-Size-20v-Golf_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQh ashZitem45ec635e4dQQitemZ300318678605QQptZMotorsQ5 fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories
same stuff TT sells for double that.

heres cheap ones for 180: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/VW-GTI-BEETLE-PASSAT-1-8T-INTAKE-EXHAUST-VALVES-GUIDES_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14Q QhashZitem5189369ce1QQitemZ350194408673QQptZMotors Q5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

with proper springs and cams you should see 50-60 horse gains at the same boost levels, even more with porting, OS valves and 5 angle or better valve job.

of course if its just the seals and not the guides then you can replace them with the head still on. take off the exhaust and intake manifolds and have a look for oil seepage. its not fun but you can change them easily. you can probably even see in the engine from the intake if you turn it till they open.

[evolveVW]

I did a quick check tonight.. took the plugs out and looked at the top the pistons- no build up at all. You can see all the machine marks etc. They were all a bit wet, but that is probably due to the monster injectors.

[iceVee]

Vin:

I'd see if you can rent or borrow a borescope and take a look at the valves in the intake and exhaust ports, like shown in the pics on 'Tex. If you can't reach them with the scope, it would be worth it to do as Jay suggested and pull the manifolds. Any valve seal leak big enough to make the smoke you're seeing should be obvious.

With that much smoke you've got a pretty big leak somewhere. I'm surprised it wasn't the turbo. Did you run it long enough to be sure you weren't burning off residual oil?

Somebody posted in that 'Tex thread that if a valve seal is bad the guide must be too. I disagree, a failed seal could probably do it even with a good guide. I'd much rather try new seals before pulling the head, if you find signs of leakage, since the seals are relatively cheap and you can install them with the head on.

[evolveVW]

I can get the intake manifold off pretty easily... the ATP T3 manifold is a pain.. so much so that the engine would need to come out. Its bad.

[USOPHUNKE]

scope it through the plug holes... if possible... but prob wont get a great view without the exhaust man off...

I would prob pull the head at this point just to be sure.... unless I found something for sure with the scope

[iceVee]

scope it through the plug holes... if possible... but prob wont get a great view without the exhaust man off...

I would prob pull the head at this point just to be sure.... unless I found something for sure with the scope

If you can carefully rotate the engine over with the scope in the plug hole (don't squash it!) you may be able to see the valve stems through the valve opening. Should be pretty obvious if one or more are leaking. Also, if an exhaust valve seal is leaking I'd expect to see a lot of oil in the exhaust manifold from that particular cylinder. You might be able to see that with the scope without pulling the manifold, if the turbo's out of the way.

[evolveVW]

Borrowed a boroscope (thanks RichB!), cylinder 3 exhaust valves are covered in oil. Cant tell if #4 is ok, couldnt get the scope around the bend in the manifold. I think I may just pull the head to be sure.

[evolveVW]

Long overdue update.. had cylinder 3 and 4 exhaust valve guides, seals and seats done. These were visibly covered in oil. Put it back together.... still smokes. Probably better for me to invest in a used built motor that going all out on the other 16 valves on this head... its a bummer.

[lotar_6]

drat. that sucks...

[USOPHUNKE]

=( oh noes...

[meatwad!!]

did you only replace the ones covered in oil?

why not do a full head rebuild?

[evolveVW]

Full head rebuild is a bit cost prohibitive, especially to do it how I would want it done. I figured I'd take the gamble seeing as how the motor only has 15k on it.. and I lost.

[meatwad!!]

true that.

bummer dude.

[USOPHUNKE]

vin pm sent to ya..

[VWTUNING]

sorry to hear dude :/

[evolveVW]

My only other option is to find a good used head and run it for now... we'll see what I come across. I'm going to get the GLI up to snuff while I'm looking

[RichB]

Bummer Vin. :frown: