1.8t MK2 project

[clubfootedmidget]

I am about to purchase this car - just awaiting a trailer.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2541744&page=1



Now after talking with the owner and doing a little bit of research I became a bit nervous regarding the cost of tuning this vehicle. The engine is built to run a GT40r (as that is what the owner had originally intended to do) but after having a discussion with the owner and I told him my HP needs (350-400) he suggested the GT3071R. As for the stand alone EMS he said he would not recommend the Tec-3 and instead recommended autronic.

He also recommended taking the car to kevin block to have it properly tuned. The thing is I am not qualified to determine who is the most capable of working on the car and tuning it. I was wondering if the other members here might be able to make recommendations or offer their knowledge to help me make the best decisions.


In essence what I want is a car that holds up well under daily driving conditions, has adequate power and AC and could if I wanted it to take it to a track and drive away afterwards and that can be built for around 10k.

I feel that I might even know what questions to ask or what to look for in my attempt to reach these goals.

I'm kinda going through a crash course on the 1.8t trying to determine the best way to approach this project.



I would also like to in the end have the wherewithall to work on and tinker with the car myslef like I have in the past with my G60 corrado but lack of experience with the engine has put me at the mercy of anything who knows slightly more than me.


If any of the members here would be willing to do lunch with me to discuss this project (boostin20v,Bunny etc..) anyone knowledgable about tuning software and the 1.8t I will buy your dinner. No Joke.


Thanks in advance - once the car is purchased and in the area I will keep the forum updated (as if you care) :)

[boostin20v]

Kevin Black is a very good tuner. If you'r willing to travel to get the car tuned (I will likely be doing so) find a prefereed tuner and get the system they are the most comfortable in tuning. That will make sure your getting their best knowledge put into the tune as they are not learning a new system at the same time.

a GT3071R should be plenty, and likely also possible with a GT2871R.

If you'd like to see a swap in progress or get your hands dirty before buying your welcome to assist Vinny and myself with my car :)

[BUNNYLOVE]

Autronic is basically the best out there IMO except Motec but that is unreasonably expensive. Kevin is one of the best tuners out there for VWs and also an Autronic dealer. But he can tune anything you want. You can budget on about 2500-3000 for the EFI hardware you need. I have no idea what he charges to dyno tune but he can send you a base map to get you rolling. Plus you have the installation of the hardware which isn't too difficult if you do it yourself.
There are other cheaper options out there also such as SDS which is really easy to setup and tune. Myself and Vinnie both know it pretty well. It much easier to grasp then Autronic or some of the others.

One thing to consider is that stuff will break on a daily basis with that much power, not necessarily the engine but axles, bushings, exhaust parts, etc. Especially at first. My Rabbit was very reliable but this was because the car had been improved over 5 years. There is a steep ass learning curve too..

[clubfootedmidget]

I would be absolutely more than willing to come over and get my hands dirty. I can't promise you I will know exactly what is going on but I am more than capable of following instructions. ****, if you drink I ll bring the beer. PM me a cell number and I will call and we can set up a time I can come over and assist. I'm dying to learn about the engine and setting up a project car. I really appreciate it.

[clubfootedmidget]

Autronic is basically the best out there IMO except Motec but that is unreasonably expensive. Kevin is one of the best tuners out there for VWs and also an Autronic dealer. But he can tune anything you want. You can budget on about 2500-3000 for the EFI hardware you need. I have no idea what he charges to dyno tune but he can send you a base map to get you rolling. Plus you have the installation of the hardware which isn't too difficult if you do it yourself.
There are other cheaper options out there also such as SDS which is really easy to setup and tune. Myself and Vinnie both know it pretty well. It much easier to grasp then Autronic or some of the others.

One thing to consider is that stuff will break on a daily basis with that much power, not necessarily the engine but axles, bushings, exhaust parts, etc. Especially at first. My Rabbit was very reliable but this was because the car had been improved over 5 years. There is a steep ass learning curve too..




The owner said to do it cheaply he was going to go the SDS route - which I might be willing to do if it will provide me what I want.

I expect that an engine making that much power is going to wear out some parts (cant tell you how many times I have helped replace VR6 motor mounts and bushing in my friends supercharged VR6) and I am willing to live with little nitpicky stuff like that so long as the engine is reliable. Figure it's only going to be a good weather driving car. But any information you can provide where I can get beefed up parts that cut down on the downtime I might experience replacing these parts - I wouldn't mind building this car like it were a factory built sports car with all the appropiate parts to hold up over time.

I didn't realize the autronic was so expensive. I still have to buy the turbo and exhaust manifold (which if you can point me to the best place to buy a turbo would be appreciated). What does the SDS stuff go for and is it reliable? Are their base maps any good and where might I find feedback from people who use the SDS hardware? I'll be on the internet all day today..heh..


Again thanks.

[boostin20v]

I've purchased both my exahust manifold and turbo from Boost Factory. I've gone with the stiffest mounts I could find, hope that helps.

you have to make the base map with SDS, look for around 1000-1200 for it new I think. Vin's been running his Mk3 1.8t for ~3 years now iwthout issues (just tranny issues)

[clubfootedmidget]

I've purchased both my exahust manifold and turbo from Boost Factory. I've gone with the stiffest mounts I could find, hope that helps.

you have to make the base map with SDS, look for around 1000-1200 for it new I think. Vin's been running his Mk3 1.8t for ~3 years now iwthout issues (just tranny issues)


Like the SDS em4F? Is there a specific system i am looking for or set up? Thanks for the heads up on the website - I am sorry to bombard the board with questions.

[BUNNYLOVE]

yup thats it. SDS send it to you with a Very rough tune which will usually allow the car to start.

[evolveVW]

The SDS "base" map is essentially good enough to get the car started. I still had to change some of the start values to get it to start and idle the way I want. The interface is very simple, and once you understand the relationships between the numbers in the programmer and how the engine will react to them, its much easier from there. Plus if you order the newest EM4F and the wideband SDS sells, you can do some limited datalogging through the wideband and run a wideband closed loop. IE the computer will try to keep the engine running around 14.7:1 air-fuel ratio.

Come on out, and even if you cant help, watch. You'll learn a ton. Oh yeah, bring food :p

[clubfootedmidget]

So you can actually go closed loop with the SDS, does that mean it comes with a wide band 02 sensor? Is that what we are all trying to go for in terms of maximum driveability? Closed loop? That way you get the broadest range of driving conditions? Does the Autronic let you run closed loop? Of the SMS's out there which one is generally considered the most reliable and easiest to use? It seems from what I have read the SDS offers that - but I am curious what out there lets me run closed loop for daily driving and open loop for racing applications?

[evolveVW]

Ive never run closed loop, but the biggest issue I can see is it has no control over boost level. IE, running 20psi on a GT30 while in closed loop would be very very bad

[clubfootedmidget]

It would be bad because in a closed loop system it would always try to maintain a certain (same) a/f mixture even at idle or during acceleration and WOT? See someone tried to explain this to me earlier today (a friend with a dinan turbo'd 1978 3 series was burning out ECU's and had to run a stand alone as well) and he was telling me that the closed loop relies on the feedback from the 02 sensor and that stock 02 sensors bandwidth is very narrow therefore can tell minute differences between 14.3:1 and 14.8:1 or so but can't tell 12:1 or 11.5:1. The way I interpreted this lead me to believe running a closed loop was a good thing because it would handle the spectrum of daily driving while maintaining boost - I thought however running open would mean you get one base setting for the computer and no feedback whatsoever from the 02 sensor so that it would make the car run rich at all times? Obviously I am lacking knowledge or this would make more sense to me.


Alright I might have another Problem - NO TRAILER!! If I can't find a trailer to use by the end of this weekend I will lose this car. I am thinking about finding out if there are any good mechanic/tuners who can build this car to run for a reasonable price in his area because I can't spend 1k just getting it up here if that money isn't going to go into the car anyway.

Anyone know of any good tuners in Northern Jersey? Or lend me a trailer? I ll pay to use it.

[evolveVW]

most stock o2 sensors are narrow band, like you desribed. The only see 0-1V. Wideband sensors see 0-5V, allowing for much greater accuracy in that range. Im not 100% sure, but when you run closed loop, like you say its O2 sensor dependent. Closed loop will try to maintain Stoich all the time, independent of the SMS's programming. SO, when you are under boost, the ECU will maintain 14.7:1 when perhaps you need 12:1. At that point you are running lean under boost, your EGTs go skyhigh, and you start breaking internal engine parts. Ryan or anyone else, correct me if I am misunderstood.

[BUNNYLOVE]

Closed loop on "normal" cars and some standalones do try for 14.7 which is really bad under boost and only really good for emissions.
Many systems can run in closed loop with target AF ratios using a wideband O2sensor. You can program it to run 12:1 under boost, 14.7 at idle, leaner at cruise, etc. Holley for example could do this. I ran my car for a bit in closed loop and it out worked well. But, once the car is tuned you don't need this at all.
Some systems also have closed loop but only at certain times.. a trigger will send it to open loop. A certain manifold pressure or rpm, tps point, etc.

[clubfootedmidget]

Ok - now it makes a little more sense to me.



So uh guys - know of any trailers that I can use? Heheheh

[evolveVW]

Uhaul, Nations Rent etc etc . Ryan, thanks for the clarification.

[clubfootedmidget]

Uhaul, Nations Rent etc etc . Ryan, thanks for the clarification.


Not bad - only 39.00 for a car tow. So it will be soon.