Monsoon Out ---> Delta 6 In!

[RichB]

Testing the idea of editing an exsisting post on the old Fastdubs site, cut and pasting the content of the post here, and then posting to see if a post can be easily moved without any futher editing....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted 5/22/06:

After some problems in getting the stock Double Din Moonson head unit out of the car (had to homebrew some radio pulling tools! :P ), I got the stock head unit out and got the European Double Din Delta 6 head unit in. Hooked up the old vag-com to get the radio programed to talk to the changer and the OE monsoon amp in the back of the car and she works!

Looks cool... has neat text features and traffic program switching capabilities.

Here is what the Delta 6 looks like before going in the car:
http://www.sigsound.com/vw_images/Delta6_2.JPG

Some interior pics of what its looks like once in the car and all lit up!
http://www.sigsound.com/vw_images/Delta6_3.JPG

http://www.sigsound.com/vw_images/Delta6_4.JPG

[RichB]

Well, that worked better than I hoped!

[boostin20v]

do any of the stations around here broadcast the text that thing can display?

[useanimagination]

do any of the stations around here broadcast the text that thing can display?

they should stu, the one in the mini has that working

[boostin20v]

speaking of the Mini Darya and I saw your brother drivng to work yesterday on 690 a bit before the fair grounds

[useanimagination]

speaking of the Mini Darya and I saw your brother drivng to work yesterday on 690 a bit before the fair grounds

wow speaking of stalker :eek:

sounds about right, he takes 690 to work

[boostin20v]

he's got a unique sticker of a bunch of numbers on the rear hatch, noticed it the other day in bville

[crew219]

Rich, have you thought about retrofitting OEM Navi + W8 cluster + TMC box?

Dave

[VWTUNING]

Rich, have you thought about retrofitting OEM Navi + W8 cluster + TMC box?

Dave


Please tell more Dae, sounds very cool.

[crew219]

Please tell more Dae, sounds very cool.

Well basically it's the CD based navigation system for the older VWs.

http://www.vwnavi.com/vwnavi/index.aspx

The W8 cluster has white accented gauge faces as well as a full sized LCD display. The TMC box allows the information on the Navi unit to be displayed in the center of the gauge cluster just like the newer DVD-based nav systems . . . .

Figured Rich has done quite a few $$$ OEM+ mods . . . . might want to consider this one too :)

Dave

[RichB]

Rich, have you thought about retrofitting OEM Navi + W8 cluster + TMC box?

Dave


I have thought about doing OEM Navi (I imagine the W8 cluster has the text display to display radio station and turn instructions and other info, correct?), but I did not want to spend the money. Plus I think the Navi unit would scream "break into my car and steal me" to a certain degree. I liked the idea of doing the Delta 6 becuase: Its fairly rare (from what I have seen/read there are maybe a half dozen cars in the states using this radio) and uniquie; It didn't cost a grand+ (spent around $300); and lastly its very stealthy (even most Vdub enthusiasts will not notice that the head unit is not "stock").

My dream for the instrument cluster would be to fab/adapt a S3 cluster to display things like Oil pressue, oil temp and maybe A/F ratio (move the boost gaurge to a offset steering colum pod so not to block the display) OR get a sapre MKIV GTI clsuter with no MFA and somehow mount the AWE boost gauge into the cluster in the area where the MFA is... having it look like a very OEM instrument cluster that come from the factory with a boost gauge.

Stu, there are about 8 stations locally that broadcast some kind of text info (it varies with some stations broadcasing only thier call letters and other stations broadcast the name of the show, the name of the song etc etc)

[crew219]

I have thought about doing OEM Navi (I imagine the W8 cluster has the text display to display radio station and turn instructions and other info, correct?), but I did not want to spend the money. Plus I think the Navi unit would scream "break into my car and steal me" to a certain degree. I liked the idea of doing the Delta 6 becuase: Its fairly rare (from what I have seen/read there are maybe a half dozen cars in the states using this radio) and uniquie; It didn't cost a grand+ (spent around $300); and lastly its very stealthy (even most Vdub enthusiasts will not notice that the head unit is not "stock").

My dream for the instrument cluster would be to fab/adapt a S3 cluster to display things like Oil pressue, oil temp and maybe A/F ratio (move the boost gaurge to a offset steering colum pod so not to block the display) OR get a sapre MKIV GTI clsuter with no MFA and somehow mount the AWE boost gauge into the cluster in the area where the MFA is... having it look like a very OEM instrument cluster that come from the factory with a boost gauge.

Stu, there are about 8 stations locally that broadcast some kind of text info (it varies with some stations broadcasing only thier call letters and other stations broadcast the name of the show, the name of the song etc etc)

Well with the full sized LCD, you could probably use EFU, which would show all those things . . . . boost, a/f, EGT, oil temp, oil pressure & etc . . .

Dave

[useanimagination]

woo our first 2 page thread

[RichB]

Figured Rich has done quite a few $$$ OEM+ mods . . . . might want to consider this one too :)

Dave

Very true.... I am amzed how much I have spent on the car since getting it, but I have dreams of some serious suspension mods down the road which I need to save some $$$ for.

[crew219]

Very true.... I am amzed how much I have spent on the car since getting it, but I have dreams of some serious suspension mods down the road which I need to save some $$$ for.

Suspension huh? Planning on going with coils?

Dave

[RichB]

Suspension huh? Planning on going with coils?

Dave

Kind of.... Here is the idea/plan/dream:

1) Audi TT LCAs (firmer bushings plus the ability to adjust camber)
2) Audi TT Steering Rack (faster steering ratio)
3) H2Sport Sport Spindles (allow lowering with correct suspension geomtry Link to Sport Spindle Webpage (http://www.h2sport.com/products.php?productid=203))
4) Ground Control Coilover sleeves for my Koni sport shocks with custom spring rates front and rear (nothing radical, but something that will strike a good balance between comfort and handling with modest amount of lowering that best matches the Sport Spindles design)
5) With this type of upgrade, I feel brakes would need to be adressed too. Nothing radical, but larger Audi TT set-up up front and TT vented rotors int he rear with upgraded brake lines, pads etc

[useanimagination]

Kind of.... Here is the idea/plan/dream:

1) Audi TT LCAs (firmer bushings plus the ability to adjust camber)
2) Audi TT Steering Rack (faster steering ratio)
3) H2Sport Sport Spindles (allow lowering with correct suspension geomtry Link to Sport Spindle Webpage (http://www.h2sport.com/products.php?productid=203))
4) Ground Control Coilover sleeves for my Koni sport shocks with custom spring rates front and rear (nothing radical, but something that will strike a good balance between comfort and handling with modest amount of lowering that best matches the Sport Spindles design)
5) With this type of upgrade, I feel brakes would need to be adressed too. Nothing radical, but larger Audi TT set-up up front and TT vented rotors int he rear with upgraded brake lines, pads etc

Holy cow RichB.... and I already loved your car.... I think I need to walk away and regain self control

[crew219]

Kind of.... Here is the idea/plan/dream:

1) Audi TT LCAs (firmer bushings plus the ability to adjust camber)
2) Audi TT Steering Rack (faster steering ratio)
3) H2Sport Sport Spindles (allow lowering with correct suspension geomtry Link to Sport Spindle Webpage (http://www.h2sport.com/products.php?productid=203))
4) Ground Control Coilover sleeves for my Koni sport shocks with custom spring rates front and rear (nothing radical, but something that will strike a good balance between comfort and handling with modest amount of lowering that best matches the Sport Spindles design)
5) With this type of upgrade, I feel brakes would need to be adressed too. Nothing radical, but larger Audi TT set-up up front and TT vented rotors int he rear with upgraded brake lines, pads etc

Don't you already have camber plates? I understand the geometry problem, but given how much you're lowered right now, you're not really in the range in which geometry issues are that much of a concern.

I personally have mixed feelings about the ground control kits. Yes, they are a good cheap solution . . . but nothing really beats matched dampers and springs. Linear rate springs also tend to be slightly overrated IMO same with customized spring rates. A suggestion I have would be to look into a set of Koni coilovers. They usually run about $850-1k, have matched springs and adjustable dampers and you can swap the springs out later if you want for different rates. If you sold your koni + softsport suspension, you'd probably be spending the same as you would with a GC suspension.

As always, I would look into doing a DE or two @ watkins. That'll really allow you to know how your car handles and what weak spots there might be. Many people suggest doing your first few on the car with as few mods as possible so you run slower and spend more time on perfecting your technique.

With the brake upgrade . . . . I had a similar upgrade on the Passat. Going from 288mm to 312mm rotors is a noticable drag on the drivetrain and your car will feel slower. The braking is slightly better, but not really that much different. All you really gain is slightly higher heat capacity. I would look into some of the brake bushings from tyrolsport. I had those on the passat, they were great. (Kyle has em too) With the 312mm upgrade + Axxis Ultimates, I was toasting the stock brake bushings . . . . tyrolsports solved that problem. SS lines didn't do much for me. I personally wouldn't bother with the rears as they do so little of the braking. I think the 312mm upgrade is much benefitted from a set of boxster calipers as the 312mms really show the weaknesses of the stock single piston calipers. Another option might be the R32 front brake upgrade? At least you'd be getting 2 pot calipers (can always paint over the blue).

Anyways, just a few things to think about.

Dave

[RichB]

I do have the SPC camber plates on the car.... as you are probably aware, these correct for poor static negative camber occuring from even my small amount of lowering, but they do not correct for the stock MKIV VW spindles camber curve issues (which is not great even at my ride height) like a set of TT or the H2Sport spindles does. With the TT LCAs, and the better starting point the H2Sport Spindles provide, I should be able to do away with the SPC camber plates (use the slotted TT LCAs to dial in about 1 degree of neg camber... all I would want for the street) and use the set of VWMS upper strut bushings I have stashed away or keep the SPCs on the car abd use them to dial out some castor.

I have only read good things about the GC sleeve set-up on MKIVs from folks who are using them. They are not just selling the sleeves, but are providing good (enginnering) support to the buyers in selection of spring rates to provide a complete solution for the car and the shocks in use... which I need becuase:

MOST (MKIV) AFTERMARKET SPRING/SHOCK AND COILOVER KITS ARE UNDERSPRUNG.... the result is a ride that is designed more for comfort which means you wind up spending most of your time on bumpstops when things get a little rough or when the car rolls in a corner. Also these kits are designed with a certain saftey margin involved due to liability issues (i.e bias towards understeer) and measured actual spring rates or often less than what is advertised. This is not what I want and the GC set-up looks to be a cost effective solution to getting where I want to be.

Some type of PDE is somthing I am very interested in and looking at doing....I will be doing some autoX with the current set-up as the suspension setup I proposed is some way off (probably next year at the soonest)... I have more research to do, deals/sales to keep an eye out for, and money to save to get this done.

Brake upgrades are something I am still thinking on and learning about.... pads, fluid, and Mike Ps (Tyrolsport) stiffeners are items I should be able to do this summer. Going to the TT brakes is a pretty easy and inexpesive upgrade that is easily attainable... though I would love to have something like the boxster or R32 set-up some day.

[crew219]

I do have the SPC camber plates on the car.... as you are probably aware, these correct for poor static negative camber occuring from even my small amount of lowering, but they do not correct for the stock MKIV VW spindles camber curve issues (which is not great even at my ride height) like a set of TT or the H2Sport spindles does. With the TT LCAs, and the better starting point the H2Sport Spindles provide, I should be able to do away with the SPC camber plates (use the slotted TT LCAs to dial in about 1 degree of neg camber... all I would want for the street) and use the set of VWMS upper strut bushings I have stashed away or keep the SPCs on the car abd use them to dial out some castor.

I have only read good things about the GC sleeve set-up on MKIVs from folks who are using them. They are not just selling the sleeves, but are providing good (enginnering) support to the buyers in selection of spring rates to provide a complete solution for the car and the shocks in use... which I need becuase:

MOST (MKIV) AFTERMARKET SPRING/SHOCK AND COILOVER KITS ARE UNDERSPRUNG.... the result is a ride that is designed more for comfort which means you wind up spending most of your time on bumpstops when things get a little rough or when the car rolls in a corner. Also these kits are designed with a certain saftey margin involved due to liability issues (i.e bias towards understeer) and measured actual spring rates or often less than what is advertised. This is not what I want and the GC set-up looks to be a cost effective solution to getting where I want to be.

Where do you want to be? From what I've seen with the MKIV chassis, best performance and best looks are awfully far apart from one another. I won't disagree that a lot of aftermarket spring / coilover kits are undersprung, but it all depends on what you're buying. Buying a KW V1 vs a KW V2 yeilds quite a difference in spring rate and dampening. Entry level coils & spring/shocks are marketed more towards the cosmetic minded / daily drivers and therefore they are made appropiately so. I would doubt that a set such as a Bilstein PSS9 is undersprung.

Comfort is also quite subjective. I've noticed that Nick and Chris' MKIVs are much harsher with stock 337 springs than my stock A3. I would slightly dread it if someone mentioned that a particular suspension setup was "slightly stiffer than stock" on the MKIV platform ;) I suppose you have another daily driver anyways so perhaps comfort isn't of much concern anymore.

Not knocking the GC kit, but I've noticed over the past few years that the current trend on vw/audi forums is that off the shelf kits are bad / customized spring rates are good. IMO, it is just a trend. Kits are made with many variables in mind, whereas the type of person who chooses customized spring rates generally only has one thing in mind. Hitting bumpstops is not a bad thing IMO. H&R certainly doesn't feel that it is bad, due to their suspension philosophy. It is a way of making a spring "progressive" and allowing for comfort @ low spring travel & performance @ high travel.


Some type of PDE is somthing I am very interested in and looking at doing....I will be doing some autoX with the current set-up as the suspension setup I proposed is some way off (probably next year at the soonest)... I have more research to do, deals/sales to keep an eye out for, and money to save to get this done.
That is a very smart way to approach it. As you learn more on the track, you will be able to feel what modifications you should be doing next. *cough*brakes*cough*


Brake upgrades are something I am still thinking on and learning about.... pads, fluid, and Mike Ps (Tyrolsport) stiffeners are items I should be able to do this summer. Going to the TT brakes is a pretty easy and inexpesive upgrade that is easily attainable... though I would love to have something like the boxster or R32 set-up some day.

Some good starter pads are: Axxis Ultimates, Ferodo DS2500, Carbotech Bobcats

All three are nice moderately aggressive pads that are fine for daily driving and will hold up to mild auto-x use. (ranged from least expensive to most expensive)

Fluid: Any DOT4, just keep it flushed. Motul RBF600 is a waste unless you're really boiling the brake fluid on the track. The valvoline synpower is a very good value for the dry BP (503F). For a very high dry BP, get the Ford HD truck fluid (536F IIRC)

TT brakes: I've mentioned it before and I'll mention it again . . . the increased rotor diameter only really gives you better fade resistance. I noticed minimal improvement with actual braking distances on my larger heavier passat when going from 288---->312. If you're planning on upgrading past a TT upgrade, I wouldn't even bother with the middle step. IIRC the porsche boxster upgrade can be done for ~$900 new and is an extreme value for what you get IMO.

Anyways, just a few things to think about . . . ultimately the DEs will give you the most bang for the buck. I would also keep in mind to change out your gearbox fluid every 15-20k as it has been shown that the OE stuff in the o2js is junk.

Dave

[lotar_6]

Definitely Autocross, Rich. It'll show you your car's limits and it's a freak'n blast!! 3/4 of this conversation flew over my head... so my only input that's worth anything is that the tyrolsport brake slider bushings are totally worth it! I also love the Axxis Ultimates, but hellafide dust is a problem. A brake upgrade is nice (I went from the 11.0 to the 11.3 DE brakes) and can help with fade. On my swap the larger caliper also seemed improved pedal feel. I didn't notice much drivetrain drag in my swap, but Dave's right about the rotating mass. Boost can solve that problem, tho. ;) I think the best thing I did for my brakes, though, was adding the SS lines. That really improved pedal feel. Anyway, I'm not concerned about what you end up doing, b/c I know you'll study the heck out of it and make an informed decision (as always)!

[CLUTCH]

Ok so where did you get this Delta 6??

[RichB]

Ok so where did you get this Delta 6??


German ebay is your friend (assuming the guy will sell and ship to the USA!!! :) Link to German eBay with search for Delta 6 radios (http://search.ebay.de/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.de%2Fws%2F&fkr=1&from=R8&satitle=delta+6&category0=)

[RichB]

Where do you want to be? From what I've seen with the MKIV chassis, best performance and best looks are awfully far apart from one another.


OK... here is where the H2Sport Sport Spindles come into play.... they are designed for a ride height about 2" lower the a stock Golf/Jetta (non sport suspension) ride height (which is approximately about .5" lower than a 20AE/337 suspension set-up). I will be sacrifcing some free suspension travel, but when coupled with (higher rate) springs to work in that range, some possible bumpstop tweaking, and proper adjustment of the rebound on the Konis, I would be shooting for a ride that is no firmer than what I have know (which is moderately to fairly stiff becuase of the 50% rebound damping I have the Konis curtrently set at.) At the lower ride height, the H2Sport spindles have a better cambe curve than the stock spindles at Sport or 20AE/337 ride heights. So they allow you to get the lowered look without the sacrifice in performance.

http://www.peterpyce.com/Suspension_Geometry/Suspension_Geometry_045.jpg



Comfort is also quite subjective. I've noticed that Nick and Chris' MKIVs are much harsher with stock 337 springs than my stock A3. I would slightly dread it if someone mentioned that a particular suspension setup was "slightly stiffer than stock" on the MKIV platform ;) I suppose you have another daily driver anyways so perhaps comfort isn't of much concern anymore.



You are quite correct here! Your A3 has a number of advanatges over Nick's and Chris's MKIV 337 suspesnion set-ups. The geomtry of the suspension design of the MKV platform is clearly better than that of the VW Golf/Jetta/GTI MKIV. You have more free travel, spend much less time on the bumpstops, and have a better camber curve (and static camber too if I recall correctly) than Nick or Chris's cars on thier 337/20AE springs. They would need to raise the front of thier cars two inches with a higher rate (not very high... i.e. a Shine Real Street set-up) to get what you have. @0AE/337 springs have about the some spring rate as the stock sport springs that came on my GTI (not 20% stiffer as was thought)... the result is that free travel is used up quickly before the spring rate has had a chance to build up and then you re into the bumpstops... Yes they act as supplemental springs, but past a certain point thier rate increases radically. So the result or fairly good on smooth roads, but when things start to get bumpy (like on many Ithaca area roads I imagine) the ride gets fairly rough.... and in cornering.... well look at the camber curve... its going positive after a small amount of compression.. Then if you hit a bump with the outside tire under moderate to hard cornering, you are on the bumpstop, spring rate spikes, camber goes positive on that tire (less traction not more), and you feel a car (frame) take the hit (not to mention what his can do to the wheel or tire - sidewall bubbles or bent rims anyone?

Phew... sorry for ranting there, but I needed to get that out of my system!


Not knocking the GC kit, but I've noticed over the past few years that the current trend on vw/audi forums is that off the shelf kits are bad / customized spring rates are good. IMO, it is just a trend. Kits are made with many variables in mind, whereas the type of person who chooses customized spring rates generally only has one thing in mind. Hitting bumpstops is not a bad thing IMO. H&R certainly doesn't feel that it is bad, due to their suspension philosophy. It is a way of making a spring "progressive" and allowing for comfort @ low spring travel & performance @ high travel.


All very valid points... sad part is that the truely good high performance (track capable) kits (like Ohlin for example) are mucho expensive. I have no problems with bumpstops, but I feel they are what they are designed to be... supplemental... and they should be used that way. The springs should do the bulk of the work and often in kits like the H&R it is the bumpstops and the springs that are sharing the work together. They advertise "higher performance", but what they are really delivering is a nice looking appearance, a fairly comfortable ride on fair to good roads, a better "feel" becuase of less body roll (which can give the driver a more confident feeling), worse ultimate grip, greater wear and tear on your bushings and bearings and a poorer ride and handling on roads not so good roads.

[crew219]

http://www.peterpyce.com/Suspension_Geometry/Suspension_Geometry_045.jpg

Been awhile since i saw that picture . . . . wow, stock is really really crappy. I can see why you're quite interested in the spindles.


You are quite correct here! Your A3 has a number of advanatges over Nick's and Chris's MKIV 337 suspesnion set-ups. The geomtry of the suspension design of the MKV platform is clearly better than that of the VW Golf/Jetta/GTI MKIV. You have more free travel, spend much less time on the bumpstops, and have a better camber curve (and static camber too if I recall correctly) than Nick or Chris's cars on thier 337/20AE springs.

Yep, one of the things I noticed is that with the OE sport suspension, my front control arms are exactly parallel with the ground.

They would need to raise the front of thier cars two inches with a higher rate (not very high... i.e. a Shine Real Street set-up) to get what you have.
Isn't MikeP / tyrolkid running that suspension? I remember him sending me a few pics of him @ watkins and the front seemed awfully high.


All very valid points... sad part is that the truely good high performance (track capable) kits (like Ohlin for example) are mucho expensive.

Does someone make an Ohlins kit for the MKIVs? Personally never seen one . . . . Stasis sent me an email awhile ago asking me if I wanted to be one of the beta testers for their Koni Tracksport kit. Would have considered it but even after the discount, the price was too high for my liking.

I pretty much agree with you RE: H&R. I do think that the Bilstein PSS9 is one of the best trackworthy kits commonly available, but as you have addressed, the spindles do seem to be extremely important with regards to overall handling.

Any thoughts on the Koni FSDs? Obviously not a shock that you would want to take to the track, but it seems to have several advantages over the typical Koni sport.

Dave

[RichB]

Mike P is running a version of the Shine set-up that (I am citing this form memory when I talked to him last at Spring Show and Go) has higher spring rates up front (than the usual Shine set-up), no front sway, Shine race rear bar, TT spindles and TT steering rack and the widest tires I have seen on the front of a MKIV (245 or 255s). It is a set-up that is for the hard core track driver the Mike is!

Have only heard great things about the Koni FSDs so far, but have not had a chance to ride in a car with them yet. The variable valving should give a car a semblance of having an active/adaptive suspension for the price of a set of good shocks.

I do believe there is a Ohlins set-up for the MKIV... can't recall were I saw it though.