I would really like to retire the SpyHunter thing- smoke issue

[evolveVW]

As many of you know my car smokes like crazy. I have an idea what the problem is but need some more input.

First, specs on the engine.. but realistically any 4 cyl VW with a similar turbo etc can be considered

1.8t 20v
75lb/hr injectors
T3/T04E dual ball bearing 60 trim
secondary CIS pump inline
SDS engine management
3 bar FPR
3" turbo back
2.5" IC piping with 3" thick IC core

Here is what I know

It is not oil. The IC and pipes are clean.

Second fuel pump disconnected, no effect.

Mixture leaned out, especially at idle. No change.

Put the BKR6 in cylinder one, plug does not get wet when 7E does

Liquid on top of piston- Carbon laced burnt gasoline. Its pushing out between the manifold and turbo, out any pin holes in the welds...etc

Performance not affected, car runs great.

Still smokes after beating the crap out of it.

Accelerator pump function on the SDS leaned out( controls amount of fuel and sensitivity of the injectors to blips of the throttle) no effect.

No signs at all that it is head gasket related.

My current theory is that there is waaaay too much fuel is being injected. These are McShane's old injectors, and I don't remember his car smoking like this at all.. I think that maybe the injectors are too big? It doesn't seem to matter how much I lean the SDS out, I had in so lean in vacuum that the engine almost stalled when I tried to rev it. I know most OE management guys run much smaller injectors than I am, the most common is a 630cc. Thoughts? Ideas? I can't really continue to drive the car like this.

[lite1979]

My current theory is that there is waaaay too much fuel is being injected. These are McShane's old injectors, and I don't remember his car smoking like this at all.. I think that maybe the injectors are too big? It doesn't seem to matter how much I lean the SDS out, I had in so lean in vacuum that the engine almost stalled when I tried to rev it. I know most OE management guys run much smaller injectors than I am, the most common is a 630cc. Thoughts? Ideas? I can't really continue to drive the car like this.

I think that's a good theory. Is it possible your injectors leak fuel? Have you tried running another set, or another fuel rail, or both?

Is it also possible your intake side is allowing more fuel to enter the combustion chamber when the cylinder's not firing, like worn lobes or something? It's got great compression on all four cylinders, right?

I'm thinking injector leak, though. Good luck.

[evolveVW]

I don't have any spare injectors or fuel rails... I need low impedance injectors if I were to test them

The engine has 15k miles, I remember testing the compression before installing the engine in 03 and the numbers didn't look good. I didn't think the thing was going to start but it has run fine.

[lotar_6]

could it be blow-by? have you done a leak-down test? maybe valve seal 'er sumthin. what cam are you run'n?

seeing the smoke, I think it's oil....

[boostin20v]

I still vote for running a current leak down/compression test.

[97GLSsleeper]

Yeah, I remember when we did the compression test one of the cylinders was a lot lower than the rest, but the car started and ran fine with the new spark plugs. I would agree with Stu that you should do a leak down/compression test.

[BUNNYLOVE]

If you can get it adjusted down enough to go lean at idle they aren't too big. You know they are too big when you they are adjusted all the way lean and its still super rich. And when this happens you get gas stanky black smoke.

The liquid stuff leaking out might just be excess condensation from humid weather and alot of short trips, idling, etc. It might not be the main problem at all.

I would do the leak down and compression tests too. I have both testers if you want to borrow them. It could

Are you loosing any fluids? Are you plugs showing signs of burning oil or super clean looking from burning coolant.

[lotar_6]

the smoke didn't have the sweet coolant smell... I know that one. :rolleyes:

also, you said there was no oil in the intake tubing, but what about the exhaust side of the turbo? I know it was rebuilt not long ago, but FAIL doesn't care about new-ness! My first reaction was the seals...

looks like the internet experts agree... leak-down & compression to start.

[evolveVW]

If you can get it adjusted down enough to go lean at idle they aren't too big. You know they are too big when you they are adjusted all the way lean and its still super rich. And when this happens you get gas stanky black smoke.

The liquid stuff leaking out might just be excess condensation from humid weather and alot of short trips, idling, etc. It might not be the main problem at all.

I would do the leak down and compression tests too. I have both testers if you want to borrow them. It could

Are you loosing any fluids? Are you plugs showing signs of burning oil or super clean looking from burning coolant.

As far as I can tell, I am not losing fluids. When I checked the oil the other day it was full. There is definitely no stinky black smoke.

The liquid, if that is excess it is really excessive! I have pulled the cylinder one plug after shutting it off and the same smoke just pours out, and I can see the liquid resting ont the piston. The car has always spit it out when it is cold (even with the K03) but nothing severe like this.

The BKR7es are a little wet (same liquid as on the piston) when pulled, and the 6Es are totally normal.


Even on the trips into Syracuse it still smokes when I pull through the toll booths, albeit not as bad. It doesn't take long after it gets off the highway to get bad again.

Ryan- I have a compression tester but will grab the leakdown tomorrow when I come by.

[BUNNYLOVE]

Yeah that is not condensation.. It wouldn't be there right after shutting off the engine and def. not be smoking out of the plug holes. Are all 4 cylinders doing this?

When you pull off the oil filler cap when the engine is running is there any pressure or smoke there?

Have you smelled/tasted the liquid or smoke? My money is on the headgasket. I'm guessing the smoke is steam and the black crap is just carbon and that was washed off by the steam and unconsumed gas.

[evolveVW]

Its hard to pull the other three plugs just after shutting it down because the turbo to IC pipe is right over them.

When Stu and I pulled the oil filler cap off the other night just after shutting it down there was the same type of smoke.

Smoke doesn't have a strong smell, just the tinge of unburnt fuel. Not coolant.

There doesn't look to be any oil in the coolant or any coolant in the oil. Although, head gasket is better than bottom end. It could very well be an internal leak. Ill pull the other plugs tonight hopefully and see if they are all doing it.

[USOPHUNKE]

I am going to say head gask leaking in from cylinder area to an oil port or a valve not seating correctly. you are going to need to do the compression test and most likely pull the head to really have this figured out for sure. You could even have a piece of something stuck between a valve and seat. this would allow oil in and exhaust gas into valve cover and possibly not allow all the exhaust out.

[evolveVW]

compression test comes back just like a new motor should! did it twice, here are the results

1 2 3 4

175 165 180 175

180 170 175 175

All that cranking and no liquid on the pistons. However, I did check the oil and its a quart down from a few hundred miles ago :frown: Any more thoughts? Valve seals? Turbo again? head gasket still? PCV not having a check valve???

[meatwad!!]

could it be valve seals tho?
i would think it would be more of an oil burning smell then what you have...

[BUNNYLOVE]

Bad valve seals will usually cause some blue smoke at start up and during deceleration. Its unlikley that they are bad with such low miles.

If you lost a whole quart in that short time and your plugs are not oily you are probably burning oil after the head so maybe your turbo is still leaking. Do you have a another turbo you could bolt on to test it? Or if you can remove it altogether and let it run with no turbo that would eliminate it atleast.

[evolveVW]

This the only turbo I have unless I steal the GT35R :P The plugs have a little bit of liquid on them but the electrodes are clean. Could the turbo really leak enough to cover the tops of the pistons?

[USOPHUNKE]

someone must have one you could try....

[BUNNYLOVE]

Vin, what is the liquid? Taste it or try to light it on fire or something. I don't think the turbo has anything to do with liquid.

You can pull your CHRA (carefully!) and leave the hotside connected to the manifold. Then you just need to bolt on a peice of metal to cap the whole where the CHRA was and plug/cap your oil feed. That will totally eliminate the turbo or point right at it.

[evolveVW]

That is what I was thinking. The smoke was blue last year and it is not this year. It is a dark slightly viscous liquid that smells slightly of unburnt fuel. I'll try to taste it and light it when I get home tonight. I would venture to say that it isn't flammable because of the amount of it left on the pistons after running for a bit.

[lotar_6]

The smoke isn't black, tho... more white. Maybe it's a combination of things.

[evolveVW]

Yeah it is definitely white until I am running rich in boost. Then it turns black.

[lite1979]

I think not having a check valve could definitely have you burning some oil just by pushing all that oil vapor into the intake. How's your throttle body look?

I wouldn't be surprised if oil consumption from an unregulated PCV plus unburnt fuel/oil deposits on your valves was why this is smoking. I'd still suspect the turbo on exhaust side guilty until proven innocent...

[evolveVW]

Intercooler pipes are clean. PCV is not recirc'd and has always been that way, even with the K03. I'm definitely not saying thats not part of the problem...

[lite1979]

since the PCV goes right into the intake hose before the throttle body, you wouldn't see anything on your intercooler from the PCV. It would be on the the throttle body and all over that intake hose. You might see some premature wear of the rubber hose that goes from the valve cover to the intake (does it look collapsed?). it would make sense that at lower rpms you'd have the different color smoke, too, since once your rpms get high enough, there's more air moving in relation to oil vapor being recirculated due to boost, and less of a vacuum at the intake.

This makes sense for the white smoke, then the black smoke would indicate a rich running condition at boost. Do you run an A/F meter on your setup?

Any reason you're not running a valve on the PCV system?

[evolveVW]

The PCV is not recirculated at all. I have an Innovative wideband o2 setup, its pretty accurate. It does it when it is lean too. As for the valve... never really knew I needed one.

[orion2.0]

jeez...when I saw the title of this thread I thought you meant a TDI... I didnt know gassers smoked.

[evolveVW]

I tasted and burned the liquid tonight. It is most certainly water with carbon deposits from unburnt fuel. It has no taste, and will not burn. I put the torch to it and it boiled instead of burned, and created the same smoke as what the car has been making. Primary point of exit of the liquid in the engine bay is between the manifold and turbo.

[FusLit]

Is there an easy way to check for headgasket leaks (w/out tearing the head off?)

-T

[evolveVW]

still have to do a leakdown, and run the car without the cooling system pressurized to see if that has any effect.

[USOPHUNKE]

you could have had the head off replaced the gasket and back on by now.


you can maybe put blacklight dye in the coolant run the car for a min and see if there is any in the cylinders or in the exhaust.

[evolveVW]

you could have had the head off replaced the gasket and back on by now.


you can maybe put blacklight dye in the coolant run the car for a min and see if there is any in the cylinders or in the exhaust.

Well seeing as tonight was the first time I had to work on it.... :wink:

[USOPHUNKE]

do work son!!!

[evolveVW]

in my case, it is more like, Get sleep son!

[evolveVW]

depressurized the cooling system tonight and it had no effect. Also have thought about the possible effect of the PCV... the way it is set up it still doesn't explain the amount of water this thing is generating. Granted, the PCV needs to operate under vacuum to draw out oil vapors, but I dont think venting it to the atmosphere is contributing to my problem. I'm stumped. Vortex has been no help.:mad:

[USOPHUNKE]

unless the pcv is roken and it is sucking in to much atmosphere. is it worse on more humid days?

[evolveVW]

I couldnt really tell you. It hasnt run frequently enough to notice or to note that kind of observation

[evolveVW]

well kids... more bad news. I think I figured out the water smoke, but guess what is now left that I couldnt make out before? You guessed it, oil smoke, just like last year. I drove it into SYR today to get it inspected and its definitely in full effect. I got 100 miles out of it before it started doing it again, and the rebuilt turbo still has less than 500 miles on it. More than likely, I am going to shelve the car and only bring it out for drag day. I could probably get the turbo turned around and installed in time, but working 10-12 hour days and having a ton of school work is probably going to keep that from happening. :mad:

[lite1979]

Please tell us what the water smoke was from! Sorry to hear you'll have to put it up until Drag Day, but better that than having to remove the engine or anything to that effect...

[evolveVW]

Really bad fuel. As suggested by a few of you and by Justin at Comp, it was water in the fuel. Considering that I have only gotten gas from the Sunoco in Weedsport this year, who know how old/bad that gas is. it all clicked to me last night while talking to Stu, and he offered me a bottle of HEET. Poured it in and this morning all was well with that.

[FusLit]

Really bad fuel. As suggested by a few of you and by Justin at Comp, it was water in the fuel. Considering that I have only gotten gas from the Sunoco in Weedsport this year, who know how old/bad that gas is. it all clicked to me last night while talking to Stu, and he offered me a bottle of HEET. Poured it in and this morning all was well with that.

Bummer about the turbo, but I'm glad that the water problem is hopefully solved.

-Todd

[lotar_6]

Bummer about the turbo, but I'm glad that the water problem is hopefully solved.

-Todd

w3rd. of course it may not be the gas station... the water may have gotten in elsewhere... maybe the fuel system is compromised.

[meatwad!!]

wiat , so the problem is the gas?

is the turbo ok or do you have to send that out to get rebuilt again?

[evolveVW]

turbo has to be rebuilt again. It was smoking like a bastard on the way home, and it is consuming oil.

[meatwad!!]

ugh sh!tty.

[FusLit]

w3rd. of course it may not be the gas station... the water may have gotten in elsewhere... maybe the fuel system is compromised.

Easy way to tell is get a small sample of the gas they have, pour into glass jar and see what separates out gas will float (so, your fuel pickup will just pull mostly water if its at the bottom of the tank.) Not sure if you'd have any recourse with the gas station. Perhaps call the # on the inspection sticker and see if there is some way to have their tank tested (not sure if it's even worth it to try.)

Does the fuel filter separate water from gas, *smart ass thought* maybe you should put in a glass bowl that you can dump like the old tractors ;)

When he was telling me the phantom water symptoms I was floating the idea it could be in the gas either from a gas station or condensation from storage. There is an air conditioner in the garage its in so I don't think it's getting condensation from there but I guess when Stu goes to start his car we'll know :-X

-T

[boostin20v]

There is an AC unit...though its not been run in a while.

FWIW the local gas station is having extensive work done to the facility (new building, pumps and I assume tanks...) might be good news once they open up the new facilities.

[evolveVW]

back from the dead.... I finally did some poking around today and did a compression test. The numbers were 15 points less on cylinders 1-3 then before drag day, and 5 points less on cylinder 4. The spark plugs look decent, with just some carbon on them.

Next step is to take the turbo off, loop the water and oil lines and see if the thing blows smoke without the turbo, and do a leak down test

[VWTUNING]

what were your numbers? did you do it dry or wet?

[Master_Shake]

Glad to see this updated.

[evolveVW]

Did it dry. Old numbers for reference

1 2 3 4

175 165 180 175

New numbers

160 150 165 170