The B3 Variant mTDI Build....FINALLY!

[rabbitgtdguy]

Well, its finally here. I am getting around to finally being able to build and install the mTDI motor in my b3 variant. I hope this thread serves as an informative one. I'm well versed with the mTDI's and have been here before, some of you may remember the GTD thread...here...
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1956&highlight=gtd
or
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=129127

It has been a little while since I have updated that one, but I'll continue to do so over the summer even though the bulk of the activity this summer will probably be with the b3 in the name of the rising gas prices and my desire to really get the car converted by fall. The mk1 mTDI is running as great and "mad" as ever and is anxiously awaiting its 02a CTN trans install which I'm just waiting to save money for a nice clutch to go with it and then it can go in. She'll receive complete bodywork and paint though this winter...I hope.
A pic for reminders...
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/79%20Rabbit%20DD/100_3202.jpg


and of course...
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/TDI%20ENGINE/100_3064.jpg


AH...but on to the b3. The car that the swap is going into...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0749.jpg

The Passats motor is a 16v and is slowly approaching 160k. Not bad for the 16v. The CIS-E motronic fuel system has never been tweaked with and i have fairly mild mods on the motor itself. A chip, wires, a nice TT exhaust, etc. Nothing major though. It runs well and gets decent mileage but I'm really itching to get that TDI in there.
The mTDI for this build will not be as all out as it was for the mk1. I won't be going with shaving the pistons, ceramic coating (though...that has crossed my mind) or crazy turbos, intake manifolds, AWIC setups, etc. like I did here. The idea with this build is to keep it as clean stock looking as possible similar to the AAZ setups that were offered in the b3.

However, the motor has already surpassed the mk1's build in displacement. I have to say that none of this would be possible without the help of STIG (on TDIClub) whose former b4 motor is the base on which my motor is being built. It was indeed a tired motor and when I took it into the shop it had to have some work done...which I'll explain as it follows here but again THANK YOU Stig for the great wedding present! I hope to keep in touch (and will PM you after I get this posted).

Onward...
Here is how the motor started out...stock 1z base...

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/Head1.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/1Z_Motor_Cylinders.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0477.jpg


Time for next post...

Joe

[rabbitgtdguy]

After tearing the motor down I found that the stock cylinder bores just weren't going to cut it which meant a trip to the machine shop and my having to source new pistons. I was able to pick up a set of .5mm OS Nurals for a great price and the pictures tell it all about the quality. No chinese junk here...
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0754.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0755.jpg


the block itself was hot tanked, honed and is ready for its paint here soon at this point.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0752.jpg

Had the crank polished and the rods resized since it is going to be a daily and I really want the "best" I can out of the motor. Besides...do it once...and do it RIGHT.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0753.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0751.jpg

The machine shop that I used did an excellent job and I'm impressed with them for yet a second time around (as they had the mk1's block originally when I did that build).

Here are some other parts I've been sandblasting and detailing in the meantime that are ready to go.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0750.jpg

You can see the euro 'cable' clutch there and the Mk1's 02a hiding, ready to go at the bottom of the pic. For now, i'll be retaining the passats hydraulic clutch but have a line on another euro cable clutch setup if I want it.

Additionally...AAZ specific parts will include AAZ b3 wiring main harness (so I can sell the current as a complete swap...), AAZ b3 cluster, airbox, downpipe, etc. all hiding in the box...
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0758.jpg


I will be using another CTN trans that I have for the car as well. Turbo wise, I'm going to use the older 1.6 IDI / 1.9 IDI turbo/intake manifold configuration and going with a T3 or a K24 from that era of car. I have a K14 in hand but don't think I'll be happy with the max boost I'd be able to pull from it.

Additionally, I'm building another Cummins 4bt pump for the car...

I just need the time to finish it.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/Passat%20mTDI%20build/DSCF0518.jpg
I think I picked the passat for this swap because of how great the car has been. I love the ride of it when it is on the road...loaded especially. the car runs bilstein HD's on all four corners and neuspeed springs. Has Hella DE's that I have made my own heavy wiring harnesses for and relayed as well as a number of little bits and additions that I have added in the past few years. I can't imagine not having the car and its been great and really (besides body parts) is easy to find parts for since it shares so much in common with the mk2 and mk3 chassis. Even the b4 of course underpinning wise. Eventually I'd like to add "Syncro" to the title here...but that is when I find a decently priced swap!

So, I'm at the point where I am waiting for other funds to buy the needed seals, hardware, etc. to assemble the motor. I'll be detailing the block in the next week or so and starting in on the head as well. I only believe in putting quality into my builds and that includes parts. I am not "rich" by far, so enjoy spending good money on "the good stuff" where needed. I'm looking to run about 18psi of boost and I'm going to go with a G60 intercooler setup until I figure a different one out (or modify the G60 cooler) in the spring of next year. i'll be running bosio nozzles...probably the .216's I have to start with but would like to work up to the PP764's or maybe 520's...we'll see. The pump currently is utlizing a 12mm head which i've been seeking out a more sedate 11mm unit...but I may run the 12mm and just keep my foot off the "go" pedal as much.

So, I think that is a good place to start. Alot of info there and I'm sure I'll think of more. I should have started it a while ago...but just haven't gotten there until now. I'm a graduate student...finishing up my degree and find this is the first night I've really had to do this...

I hope it will be a great...and informative build. Target....FALL!!!

Joe

[USOPHUNKE]

cant wait to watch this and learn some stuff, I love your mk1!!!!

[evolveVW]

Sweet ! I had always wanted to do a diesel in my old B3 wagon.

[iceVee]

Very cool, Joe! Glad to see you get started on this!

BTW, I finally got the diesel tach installed in my Mk2 - works like a charm!

[kabinotar]

Looks very cool. I'll be interested to see the kinda work a diesel takes.

[RichB]

Wow, that's going to be one awesome wagon. Thanks for all the detail, though I don't understand quite all of it, its good reading to learn about these diesel motors and the right way to build one!

[BUNNYLOVE]

Awesome! I'll be watching this one closely.

[imola20ae]

Nice build! Always great to see someone putting their ideas into actions, good luck!

[FusLit]

Very cool Joe, I can't wait to see the build and checkout the final product!

-Todd

[orion2.0]

very awesome! what hp/tq figures do you expect this mTDI to put out if you go with 764's?

[lotar_6]

you go Joe! keep us updated... as you can tell we are all interested!!

[rabbitgtdguy]

Well..the mk1 mTDI with the 12mm pump, R520's, AWIC and worked over several other things is putting down some real nice numbers... I won't say what until its actually dyno'd...but I have an idea based on what i was originally working with.


With the b3...I'm going to say around 130hp/140hp or so before I top things out nozzle wise. I'd much prefer the PowerPlus versions...just need to get the cash to get them. I'd like to have a reliable 140/150 once I get the intercooler, nozzles and everything setup where I want it. Maybe more...we'll see. Torque numbers would be somewhere around 200/230ft/lbs. I can't say specifically based on the nozzles...the only reason I'm using them right off is because I have them here, in a set of injectors ready to go as they are what was formerly in the mk1 before I went to the Race 520's.

Joe

[rabbitgtdguy]

Well, the engine build continues...bottom end is almost complete. I'm wrestling with some turbo choices for both of my mTDI setups at the moment. One holset is on the way and another may be in the works :) We'll see

As far as an update. Well, thinking towards winter right now and trying to get things ready. Passat just went through inspection today with flying colors after basically rebuilding the rear end of the car in the last month with all new bearings, rotors, MKIV caliper upgrade (which is easy and can be done FAR cheaper than 200 bucks as most list...have another set to go on the MK1), new ebrake cables, mintex of course, etc. Good stuff...last inspection as a gasser def. though. I've even thought about doing the swap in the winter here as I do have back up transpo with my brother now living in the area.

So, a week or so ago I decided that the paint really need another good wax before it headed into winter. The paint on the car is quite faded and really needs to be resprayed...hopefully, in the spring here. However, wax does clean it up for a little while and it looks nice. So...did that.
Also, a hailstorm this summer had crack one of my preferred "clear" Hella DE headlight housing. I had a set of smoked housings that I had bought for spares after I got the car that had been damaged/repaired as well and didn't want to risk damaging the clears anymore...so the smokes had gone on. The original intention for the smoked units was to repair them, smooth them out and color match them to the car. Not sure of the look...I just kind of had left them alone all summer long.

Well...that changed. Got inspired, pull the covers, plastic weld a lot of sanding and paint later and here is the product.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/DSCF1200.jpg

I think I like the end product a lot more than I originally thought I might. It will be even better when they are truly completely matched to the color of he car itself. It makes the lights blend to the car alot more without them being a standout on there own. I think the blending gets me the most. For many that don't know the b3, the hellas always REALLY stood out and made you question...huh? Now they just look like part of the car...but they flow. Don't know if there is a better way to say that but I think that is what I'm getting at :) Flow....
Needless to say. I think they will stay color matched for the respray in the spring.

Additionally, not wanting to throw on the winters quite yet, I trade the rims that I had on the car in the pictures above for a set of 4x100 BSI rims that my brother had. I was never a fan of the multi-lug setup of the other wheels and my brother has had a itch for the rims that I had. I found this set for him a while back and we ended up trading. Think I like these better as well! They will be blasted, stripped and possibly polished this winter. If not, repainted def.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/DSCF1197.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/DSCF1198.jpg
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/joeallison_99/Passat%20Wagon/DSCF1196.jpg

So, that is the update for now.

A new addition is coming to the family as well soon. Another VW of course. I am getting a Corrado shell (complete) within the month. Another diesel target as well. A few years off....but it'll be PD swap or a new CR swap :) Finish the Mk1 and have this as a driver first though. Hopefully, more motor build pictures to follow here this weekend of the b3's engine.

By the way...if anyone knows of any b3's with good leather (black) door cards and/or carpet in your area...I'm still trying to find a set to complete my leather swap.

Joe

[FusLit]

nice job on the lights, they do flow much better with the car now. sounds like thing will be pretty swee when you've finished!

-Todd

[rabbitgtdguy]

Thanks Todd!

By the way...if anyone is interested in a b3 16v wagon. There is one for sale in the Elmira area here. A blue one....in good shape. I know the guy has had it serviced regularly at the local VW guys place as I've seen it there and around on more than one occasion. Can take pics. Not sure what they are asking for it.

Joe

[orion2.0]

the dohc 2.0 tdi would be sweet for the corrado project. 230 bhp stock isnt bad...add just a couple mods and it would be nasty.

I am considering using the 2.0tdi for my rabbit project. Bleachedbora on TDIclub can get them. He is looking into pricing for me...probably way out of my price range.

[rabbitgtdguy]

yeah, think I'll wait for a few years when they come down in price a bit. Need to saturate the market a bit. It could very well stay a gasser though. We'll see. Haven't decided for sure and have plenty of time.

Joe

[allstarrme]

looking good, what are the motor specs? also what holsets are you looking at running? i could use a set of pp502's for my 1Z. I have a few audi 5000 ic's around i have been thinking about making single pass.

[rabbitgtdguy]

Think I detailed the motors build specs earlier in the thread. Overbored, complete rebuild, raceware studs. I'll be port matching and polishing like I did on the mk1's mTDI motor, 12mm pump at the moment...though, may move to a 11mm head if I can find one. Nozzles...PP520 or 764's at the moment...have Sprint 764's that could go in initially. Turbo wise. The holsets for both motors are a bit of a personal secret at the moment while I wait for their arrival and some measurements I'm going to take. The b3's motor is larger in displacement but overall more sedate than the mk1's in the end. I didn't mod the pistons (they are brand new 1st oversize Goetze/Nural units), mess with CR or ceramic coat on this one since I'll be using it as the driver. However, plan on it having plenty of power as she'll be built to at the very least support 30psi without an issue. I've gone through every piece of the motor and built it based off my original mTDI in the mk1 for the best balance between power/economy.
Trade offs from the upgrades I'll be doing to the mk1 could end up on the b3 this winter...such as the G60 intake manifold and a few other things (since I'm working on a new intake manifold (Ryan and I had the same one) from the volve 6cyl D24) so...we'll see :)

Progress is nice...

As for intercooler...that is a debate at the moment as well. I have options.

Joe

[orion2.0]

i've never seen the car in person, but, from the pic it looks like it would be tough to put an intercooler in there and get good airflow through it.

The cheap e-bay FMIC's seem to work surprisingly well. At roughly 80 bux, I figure they are almost disposable units... which is good since they are pretty exposed and vulnerable to road debris, curbs, bottoming out, etc.

[rabbitgtdguy]

It is hard with the b3...so I'm still considering options. I have ideas about a smaller version of my AWIC, using a decently priced core, possibly using the G60 setup since the b3 synchro cars did run the same cooler in the same location as the corrado (and all b3 cars have the mounting location) and doubling up the coolers if that was the case.

Joe

[orion2.0]

you could use a square smic and mount an electric fan on it to get good airflow even if the car isnt moving.

[allstarrme]

Think I detailed the motors build specs earlier in the thread. Overbored, complete rebuild, raceware studs. I'll be port matching and polishing like I did on the mk1's mTDI motor, 12mm pump at the moment...though, may move to a 11mm head if I can find one. Nozzles...PP520 or 764's at the moment...have Sprint 764's that could go in initially.

i just meant how many more CC's does 20 over give you? will that increase the power any or change the compression at all? have a source for 2.5L TDI pistons?

I picked up a d24 intake from the Auburn yard, but i kind of want to get an audi 5000 non turbo or 5 cyl 10v 90 with 2 piece intake and compare the runner length and port size. how does having longer runners and a larger plenum affect torque when the turbo sppols so low? i know having longer runners would add torque on an NA motor. how about one of those long runner SDI intakes?

[rabbitgtdguy]

Well...if you bore 1st over size each cylinder stock is effectively 79.5 so 1st over would be 80mm


Displacement = Stroke * pie * (Bore / 2)^2 * [# of cylinders]

So initial TDI engine would be...

D= 95.5 * pie* (79.5/2)^2*(4)
D= 95.5 *3.14*(39.75)^2*(4)
D=95.5*3.14*(1580.06)*(4)
D= 1896cc for a stock TDI motor...

Bored over to 80mm

D= 95.5*pie*(80.0/2)^2*(4)
D=95.5*3.14*(40)^2*(4)
D=95.5*3.14(1600)*(4)
D=1919cc for my 1st Oversize motor

Not a huge difference in displacement.
Stock compression ratio on a TDI is 19.5:1 respectively and honestly the small change in displacement will only lower the CR VERY slightly. I haven't even gone through to figure out exactly how much. Nothing like what I did on the mk1's mTDI which drop the compression ratio down to around 17.5, right around with the VWMS TDI was. Power may increase a little...but not much again.

The Volvo D24 manifold is my choice. It will interesting to see how Ryan's does with it. I've had one around for a while now, just never got to do much with it until this winter. The use of the longer runner intake manifold on the TDI will move the torque band a bit...maybe a few hundred RPM's slightly depending on how drastic it is. The stock manifold promotes all that low end torque but really sucks for breathing up farther in the range...especially with more boost. The longer running intake manifold on the SDI is proof "why" they installed them on the NA cars to improve the up hill driveability, speed, etc. when the car is not turbocharged. On the turbo cars...you wouldn't notice because the turbo is doing alot of that work and improvements in flow *and the lack of a better manifold* was probably more cost effective, etc. Think about that almost 90 degree bend that the stock TDI manifold makes...err....nasty. So, while the longer runner manifold will move the band a bit, losing a bit of low end torque it improve things through the mid range and better. Additionally, it lowers cruising boost as well. I remember on the old IDI TD that I had done one of the first 8v manifolds on a diesel car with...that cruising boost at 65 mph dropped by almost 3-4psi which was nice...was more economy, better driveability and I even saw my EGTS drop a few hundred degrees. So...there are the benefits.

The audi manifolds are nice...the runners sweep nicely but you need to port them *and any 8v manifold for that manner* out to "D" ports that the TDI engine has. That said...there isn't a whole lot of material left for the face of the port once your port it out. I ported my G60 manifold out and have "just enough" material to feel comfortable with it sealing to the head correctly. The D24 manifold has very nice runners that breathe well and the plenum design is excellent. Remember...even vs. the audi 5k manifold though, if you go 8v, the FOX manifold is the best flowing 8v intake manifold out there.
I think the G60 manifold may go to the b3's engine here and the D24 manifold I have will go to the much more crazy engine in the mk1 of course.

The SDI manifolds are...errr...ok. I'd find another AAZ one before I'd get a TDI "SDI" one. The 2pc DI "SDI" manifold are part plastic...don't know how I'd feel about throwing 40psi at it.

No source for 2.5 TDI pistons...sorry. Have to look across the pond I guess. Or through EBAY.

Joe

[orion2.0]

have you ever considered fabing a manifold with the plenum right behind the engine? Then have short (roughly 3") runners shoot straight into the engine with no bends? I planned on making on of these over the winter and re-routing the turbo intake to make room for it.

Do you think it will kill the low-end torque?

[rabbitgtdguy]

No, I haven't. The concept has its place on a gas engine, especially a crossflow mow...but counterflow? I don't think it'd be largely beneficial on a TDI. Go for it though...kudos. There is a guy on vwdiesel named Dave that hacks TDI manifolds apart and adds his own trumpeted plenum to the stock units. Eh...ok if you want something aftermarket but doesn't solve that problem at the bottom of the manifold at all. There are much more cost effective and efficient ways to improve the flow.
Plus, my turbos that I have run on the last two configurations wouldn't support that idea. Not to mention, there isn't a ton of clearance to really make it work.

Joe

[orion2.0]

no, there definately isnt much room back there. That sharp 90 degree turn is what I wanted to get rid of buy having the runners go straight in.