suspension??

[GTI-VDuB]

[B]Hey everyone.
Ive already decided im gonna get coilovers, since I have access to cornering scales or weight whatever you wanna call it.
I was just gonna do this setup

Front and rear sway bars, coilovers and a skidplate..

BUt I was told I didnt have to get a front sway bar. Just end links... Reason being I dont wanna chance rubbing the sway bar on the axel.

So what to do?

I want better handling

so I was thinking these endlinks. http://wrdusa.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WRD&Product_Code=100A430

A DieselGeek Skidplate.

and a 28mm Rear sway bar from http://www.hrsprings.com

I aint decided on which coilovers I want yet but im just getting ready so im set to take a day and do a full install hassle free =]

whats everyones thoughts and oppinions? WHat to improve

[crew219]

Get the neuspeed rear sway over the H&R. Quite a few H&R owners have switched to neuspeed brackets as the H&R brackets are flimsy and often break.

I'd look at Vogtland, Bilstein PSS9, & KW for the coilovers.

Dave

[GTI-VDuB]

ok so go neuspeed instead of h&r 28mm seem good?

Everything else seem alright/

[GTI-VDuB]

anyone??

[vwremglx]

Don't know much about MKIV suspension setups, but I love my Koni Coils on my MKIII.

[veedubboostn]

I am W/Ryan, I'm not that fimiliar W/MKIV suspension, but do love my FK coilovers on my rado...:rofl:

[lotar_6]

I know very little about MkIV suspension, too. IIRC the MkIV Koni's are difficult to adjust... but I'd read up on that. The Neuspeed rear sway is prolly the way to go @ 28mm. Keep your front sway stock for now. I've not heard of sway link issues w/ lowered suspensions, but it would prolly be better safe than sorry. DieselGeek is great! Great products... but I heard BPTD was going to make a MkIV skid plate, too. Worth looking into. Consider replacing control arm bushings, strut bushings & bearings, and strut caps (if the MkIV has 'em) while you are at it. GL!

Also, consider getting upper strut braces for the front and rear. These really help stiffen up the entire car. Any brand pretty much does the same thing... just your choice of style IMO.

[Finz]

I am running Koni CO's and love them. The rear damping is a PITA to adj because the shock has to completely removed to make the adj. As for ride quality, I think it is excellent for a CO setup. I would not eliminate a brand based on adjustability because once you get the damping set to where you like it, how often will you be making changes? Unless your going to be doing a lot of auto-X-ing. All brands of CO have their +'s and -'s and price unusually plays a big role and for the money (I pd like 800 new for my Koni's) I dont think you can beat them.

as for Sways, I'm going w/neuspeed 28mm this spring in the rear. No plans to touch the front, the oem is adequate. Plus removing the front sway on the mkIV is a pita.


As for the F/Sway end links, some people on tex have expressed issues with rubbing. I have never had this issue. But unless you are running a super large drop/slam you should not have a problem or need for end links. End links however will provide additional adjustability in setting up the suspension. So going with them for the sake of improving yr handling might make sense.

GL and I hope this helps a little

[RichB]

GTI-Vdub.... I have spent many hours reading and researching MKIV suspension set-ups... here are some of my thoughts/questions:

Do you really want better handling? i.e. do you want more lateral grip (independent of how the suspension set-up may look) or do you just want a set-up that feels more buttoned down, more responsive, and sits the car lower for a nicer look?

Much discussion and analysis has been done on MKIV suspension geometry... when you lower the front of a MKIV (Golf/Jetta/GTI) from stock ride height (stock Golf/Jetta/GTI ride height - not 20AE or 337 ride height) the front suspension geometry changes such that the cars camber curve and mechanical tendency for the car to roll becomes worse. The result is that when you go lower you sacrifice maximum lateral grip.

Now "better handling" means many things to different people. If you are a guy who does AutoX and or Track days... what I have said above makes getting a MKIV to handle real well to be a PITA. Those guys who are serious about going around corners as fast as possible run set-ups like Shine Racing Services Real Street set-up. It actually raises the front up a bit and lowers the rear. Looks goofy, but all the die hard track weenies I know say it goes around corners faster than anything else.

For many though, "better handling" is just getting rid of the stock float/dive, providing a bit better turn in response and a flatter cornering attitude. This generally increases driver confidence as it makes for a more "secure" feeling ride (i.e. the driver feels more comfortable in pushing the suspension to its limits). A suspension that does this (on a MKIV) will generally sacrifice some lateral grip in getting there because the most of these set-ups lower the car.

Now let say, you want a compromise... trade off a bit of lateral grip for a better feel/attitude, but not lower the car so much that you sacrifice too much grip and suspension travel. A number of the kits recommended above will do this as long as you only drop things less than 1" (though many coil-over kits at a minimum lower more than this). If you want ride height adjust ability, go for coil overs. IN GENERAL (again on a MKIV), they provide no more advantage than just that feature over a set of springs and well tuned shocks. Corner weighting is only really necessary if you are going to be serious/hard core autoX or track-daying your car (in which case you should be seriously looking at upgrading your stock brake pads too if you are still running on them). Corner balancing can often lead to different fender heights at each corner....something most folks won't want to live with!

As to repalcing the stock front sway.... not necessary. The stock front unit is more than adequate and dropping the front sub-frame to change it is not much fun or a desirable thing to do. As the others have mentioned, stay away from the H&R rear sway because of the issues with the clamps.... the neuspeed design holds up much better and also requires no drilling in the rear beam. I would go for a adjustable bar so you can dial in the over-steer (minimize the under-steer) to your comfort level. I have the Autotech adjustable unit, it does require drilling a couple of holes in the rear beam though, but it is a unit I am happy with. Then there are in the axle beam bars like the shine rear bar... very stiff... best when used with Shine's Real Street set-up.

If you car has a fair amount of mileage on it: Replace your front upper strut bearings/bushings. If you car has a more than a fair amount of miles on it, you may want to replace the bushing in your front lower control arm. More firmer units from the Audi TT can be uses to help tighten up the feel of the front end of the car.

One last note/thought which you may already be aware of. The best thing you can do for your car to make it handle (grip I mean) better is a good set of really grippy tires. Best bang for your buck is here - espcially to get the best out of any upgraded suspension.

Sorry this was so long... hopefully it is of some help!

[Finz]

Rich is right about Tires being the absolute best way to increase grip! We can do everything under the sun to the mkIV chassis, but when all is said and done tires will make the single biggest difference is handling. And then on to which tire will do that .... is a whole new argument not worth waging.

One thing very often overlooked is damping. Shock damping is what controls the spring. Many people believe that a stiff spring is the way to go. But a softer spring combined with a better/more controlled dampended shock will allow the tire to work better. With proper damping levels, the car will settle back to the proper attitude faster. Most damping in modern vehicles can be controlled by increasing or decreasing the resistance to fluid flow in the shock absorber, thats why high end shocks have recovers, to allow for faster movement of the fluid or gas.

Lets not forget about rollcenter. The higher the RC the more slip the vehicle will produce, this can be controlled by swaybars, don’t go to small or to big. The use of anti-roll bars allows you to reduce body lean without making the suspension's springs stiffer. Another function of the swaybar is to reduce understeer, that is when u turn the steering wheel but the car continues to go straight. The stiffer sway will transfer weight allowing the front tires to grip.
If u run a bar that is to stiff you can get wheel hop, this mainly happens on rough or uneven pavement. To stiff will also cause the inside wheel to lose contact with the pavement (some peeps think this is kewl) But you never want any of your tires off the ground. A contributing factor to this is also springs that are too stiff or shocks/struts that are not dampened right. So everything is tied in. Nothing is an easy do. Specially on this chassis.

One big draw back is the strut. This design is bad from the start. Not designed for anything other than saving money for the manufactory. The biggest draw back is that the strut cannot allow vertical movement of the wheel without some degree of either caster angle, camber angle change, sideways movement, or both. So there you have it, more problems proving that the MKIV is out of that range before it drove off the design table. Creating the perfect geometry will never exist on this platform no matter what changes you make. Even changing the spindles will not create in ideal situation

[RichB]

Rich is right about Tires being the absolute best way to increase grip! We can do everything under the sun to the mkIV chassis, but when all is said and done tires will make the single biggest difference is handling. And then on to which tire will do that .... is a whole new argument not worth waging.

One thing very often overlooked is damping. Shock damping is what controls the spring. Many people believe that a stiff spring is the way to go. But a softer spring combined with a better/more controlled dampended shock will allow the tire to work better. With proper damping levels, the car will settle back to the proper attitude faster. Most damping in modern vehicles can be controlled by increasing or decreasing the resistance to fluid flow in the shock absorber, thats why high end shocks have recovers, to allow for faster movement of the fluid or gas.

Lets not forget about rollcenter. The higher the RC the more slip the vehicle will produce, this can be controlled by swaybars, don’t go to small or to big. The use of anti-roll bars allows you to reduce body lean without making the suspension's springs stiffer. Another function of the swaybar is to reduce understeer, that is when u turn the steering wheel but the car continues to go straight. The stiffer sway will transfer weight allowing the front tires to grip.
If u run a bar that is to stiff you can get wheel hop, this mainly happens on rough or uneven pavement. To stiff will also cause the inside wheel to lose contact with the pavement (some peeps think this is kewl) But you never want any of your tires off the ground. A contributing factor to this is also springs that are too stiff or shocks/struts that are not dampened right. So everything is tied in. Nothing is an easy do. Specially on this chassis.

One big draw back is the strut. This design is bad from the start. Not designed for anything other than saving money for the manufactory. The biggest draw back is that the strut cannot allow vertical movement of the wheel without some degree of either caster angle, camber angle change, sideways movement, or both. So there you have it, more problems proving that the MKIV is out of that range before it drove off the design table. Creating the perfect geometry will never exist on this platform no matter what changes you make. Even changing the spindles will not create in ideal situation

Don is mostly correct in what he says above... some things need a bit of clarifying.

Damping/shocks: A soft spring with a shock that has too much damping can make for a tight feeling ride, but the problem is that the spring is now over damped and the result is that over sucessive bumps the suspension will pack down... you start loosing suspension travel before the shock spring combo settles back to its normal level and then you get hit with that last big bump in a series of bumps and the suspension bottoms out. Actually, you wind up riding on your bump stops (which are actually supplemental springs) which have very high spring rates. So smooth road cruisin is fairly controlled, but when things get bumpy they can get very harsh. Matching the spring to the shock is a important factor. Stock dampers (soft damping) with aftermarket springs (higher rate than stock) can make for a apparently comfortable ride, but the stock shocks are working over time to keep up with the higher rate springs which generally means the stock shocks lifetime is shortened considerably.

Many aftermarket cup kit and coil-overs have spring rates which (when actually measured - not going by the claimed manufacturer rate) are are softer or not much firmer than stock. These are coupled with well matched dampers to provide a low and smooth ride, but your free suspension travel is reduced a bunch... so over anything that requires any kind of suspension travel, you are riding around on your supplemental springs (i.e. bumpstops). Cutting/trimming bumpstops helps regain some of that free travel, but when you car goes into that bumpstop the ride will get harsh and because there is no more suspension travel to be had, the tires is going to bouncing around on the surface of the road... effectively causing you a reduction in grip in corner.

Anti roll bars act like springs too.... that do not only aid in weight transfer, but they effecting change spring rates in cornering from side to side. This will have a effect on ride comfort in corners. Sway bars can be used to add or remove understeer. A smaller (than stock) bar up front will increase body roll, but will help reduce understeer (In fact some serious tracker's I know run with no front sway... just beefier front springs). A thicker front bar will induce greater understeer.

One last important thing: SWAYBARS CANNOT EFFECT THE ROLL CENTER of our MKIVs. They can help with weight transfer etc, but the front roll center on our cars is affected by the geometry of the front end - mainly the position of the lower control arms. You lower the front of a MKIV, the Roll center drops faster than the center of gravity. So the tendency of the car to want to roll (the roll couple) become greater. On the rear, if the car goes lower, this does not happen. Drop spindles (like the H2Sport ones are the spindles used on the Audi TT) CAN and do correct for roll center at lower ride heights. They effectively change the position of the lower control arm allowing one to ride a lower ride height with out the roll center being pushed so far away from the center of gravity. They still do not gain you any additional suspension travel though, so when used, a higher than stock spring rate is a good idea so that the car will not spend so much time riding on the bumpstops (supplemental springs).

To overcome this tendency of the car to want to roll when the front is lower.... spring rates must go up to try to counteract this effect... enough to make things not so comfy ride wise, so often the resulting set-up is a compromise like mine: Modest lowering (0.5" Neuspeed sofsport springs) with spring rates about 20% higher than stock and adjustable rebound damping Koni Sport (yellow) shocks dialed in to get the higher rate springs under control.

AND when it comes down to it, ANY suspension setup is a compromise. Hopefully understanding what those compromises are will allow one to pick the set-up that works best for himself/herself.

[1point8turbo]

I have the NEX coilovers...and boy does the car handle with those..but they do get ****ty on the highway and bouncy roads.